Product Lifecycle Management

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TOTW - Product Lifecycle Management
0:01 Welcome to product growth leaders topic of the week this week we're talking about product lifecycle management with Me I have Steve Johnson
0:11 one of our my Cofounder We got rob Goldberg one of our regular panelists and for the first time this week we have Laurie Harvey Laurie harvey is a longtime product professional who does a lot of work with topped all the top talent community and so that's how I got to know we're here and This week we're talking about product lifecycle management so with that said let's dig into the answers to our monday questions so the Monday question was what dynamics metrics are most valuable to consider when managing a product's lifecycle
0:43 our friend Jason Vince oh that was back in being informed being the first person to answer an unfortunate couldn't join US today what he said was it depends on the product and if the desire when what the desired outcome is from Revenue usage and adoption must be part of it expected versus actual adoption and adjusted per client especially in the enterprise software industry and adoption is not just logging in but transactions and value transactions measured over a period of time to account for anomalies Compare them against industry Norms doubt Jason works at a big enterprise software company so some of those metrics are Gonna be related to that I've Lori was the second answer but we're going to actually give her her own page because to do a deep dive into metrics with that Ah I was the second one the dynamics of the most important most important phase of maturity and lifecycle the product design In the market position later challenger follower what I have found is that if you can track where you are in the market life cycle and where you are in the leadership stack it actually helps give you very specific actions that you should be doing for product lifecycle management Whether it's creating a new curve where you're focusing your revenue in those types of things from metrics I Am a huge fan of the trailing twelve month bottle right looking at what's happening is that smooths out things and I like net retention now I come from a typical subscription type business model and that retention is your exit
2:08 route renewed revenue plus new revenue divided by Star the ears are what was available for renewal so this is actually how gartner group used to do their sales compensation back in the day I if somebody had a base of one hundred eight one of them to get to one hundred and ten so they needed to renew and add new revenue to get to that hundred and ten but a lot of subscription models this is what I've seen in the second thing I also look at was this I it more manually could you know where the new deals coming from if we're getting new deals are they competitive take backstrom
2:45 of takeaways or when backs meeting they were already in the market doing it or are they met new people the mark and that sort of helped me understand how much of the non customers are available out there Steve I'd love to get your take on these first two approaches
3:03 well you know it's a typical steve situation of tossing me a softball and ashes swing and miss Because if you were tied about that I was thinking about the work that I've done recently and and and in particular
3:19 you know I'd as as laurie pointed out are a little earlier
3:24 or maybe well one of you A lot of the stuff that I really want to track I need to track at the product level and yet most companies don't track anything at the product level so it's like how much revenue do we make well gosh the company made this but you know who knows what your product may It was all rolled into a big enterprise deal in and nobody knows what the average selling prices but at the other thing I was a cannibal jumping on was you were talking about leader challenge follower
3:54 i've been applying my thinking about metrics to the three horizons because it's IX it completely I think changes the way we think about what we want to track if you're in horizon three and you're designing you're determining what new markets to serve or what new products to build for existing markets if you do in the ants off matrix then revenue is irrelevant Because what we're doing in Horizon three is learning so it's like I don't know completed customer interviews or
4:30 recommended market product fit Combinations of
4:38 things fit focused towards you know the metrics that would help quantify the future whereas if you're in the tornado you know you're like all we care about his adoption Let's adopt grow grow grow adopt adopt adopt and if you're dealing with horizon one it's like how do we reduce our costs of goods sold well rusty he knew you had me at ANZAC Matrix aka but I actually that as always I get new things are thinking about right I've got up and went mad you progress like louth and was thinking of an affix right AH but if you're truly thinking of the three phases there three horizons you really need that do have different ways you're looking at and I think maybe one in this has me leading what the question will have later on you know one of the biggest problems people have is they only think in the now they don't think about the next and the future and what of the right metrics for those center things to be valid in that type of stuff frog I'd love to get your take on this your front end Guy he's talking front end and next the now
5:38 so but Google dynamics along the path of the product life cycles is it's always hard to measure you know we've done pressure curves in the past Look at structural changes that are coming in the product whether it's through margin erosion or or revenue gain in some of the metrics I you talk to you mentioned grab a I think are are he's about but you know when you're in business now I think about the world whatever because when you're in a business that is where where you have a mentor you know a large share of the market you're in I'm looking at The life cycle in terms of technology debt which is maybe a maybe a different spin on this if I cover all the sirens throwing off margin because I am service thing that in technology because Yeah because the next decision you know in these interim interlocking essay curves I have to go in modernize a platform all the sudden i Maddie i better I my piano Majority are decline because of that and maybe ripe for disruption so you know why you came I think you know we kind of we tend to look at things a what you're talking about you know is really the front end piece of this but as as you go farther into the lifecycle gets harder and harder and I don't think the metrics that we use years ago it was Leo's ago was easy easier a lot easier I think to create a product line piano I can tell you it is extremely hard now to create products i P and Elsa Steve's point and to get a really good read on some of that so when looking at other metrics that we collect especially around you know our discretionary spend and trying to match back to the marketplace and where are you and what lifecycle we are in the market are we Gonna a mature stage or rick I'm a growth stage go gadget Jason had actually had a response to mine on a dynamics and net retention talking about the ability to actually measure that type of stuff and got back to places where I was haven't have a location battles with with the finance department trying to figure out how do I allocate revenue when my product is thrown in as a Gimme right how do I allocate caught up with they're putting
8:03 the aren't carrying my bag but just brought it it's it's it's hard to your point to do that by the metrics are key to doing this an end so I'm Gonna get on this page we're Gonna get a lawyer in more so long the Article I wrote up
8:20 keep Cape Yacht I specifically focus on the business once Ah and business with caveats are key for product lifecycle management these are the focus from customers customer lifecycle value bookings revenues costs and profitability for executives these should drive investment decisions lay foundation for additional headcount of go no go to Susan's at the frog level or I got the list of things down here post before I that have you sort of talk broadly about this for your hundred fin de wanna advocating eyes and how you got to this is business one in our responses were more than once alliance at lifecycle so let's let's get your take Yeah so you know when I think about like a sample of course I go to the curve where you got a lot of investment up front here on this side and it takes a while to get momentum get the momentum and then there's also some drop and you have to adjust straight south this is a mall or sort of looking out from the product lifecycle perspective then I think the key is keeping a nice change Depending on where you are in that lifecycle of M M you need to settle accounts you read ahead into my questions laurie is that you're Gonna have to my questions okay
9:36 it happens every weekend with somebody they they actually start talking about one of their future quartering I'm going to get now okay I know you're you've got it I know you've Gotta leave early so let's let's let's let's hear your take Yeah so my take is that
9:51 I think
9:53 every business is Gonna Focus on different kitty eyes and and you have to have an agreement about being on the board and executive of other see x level as to what is important for the strategy of the company so there's There's Gonna be no hard and fast rule as to which are the ones that you're going to be reporting lot obviously revenues is one margins are another that standard across the board but when you start drilling down to the operational work of the product key and how are you managing the team and what you can measuring them on and what we are setting their expectations for I think that changes based on where you are in the lifecycle and you have to always look back at what should you be bought a drink based on a strategy in the goals of the company just throwing that out now I I I think it's clear that the question will get to letters what what aspects are proud members of the little different the KPI eyes what let's let's go through and I you know I used in the in the poll question inception growth and I actually break up growth and the early hyper growth late stable growth maturity and then decline talk to me about inception or product market fit what would be a good kPI There
11:05 again goes back to the strategy right arm himself our product market fit perspective you really need to be measuring opportunity against addressable market against doubt whether this is in our revenue or a customer acquisition scenario because as he said we are often you do that giveaway thing because of the synergy Ravenous you're Gonna get from other products by adding a feature ocean capability that drives ravenous you know across the street Ah so AH at there's no hard answer really is not the hard answer okay let's talk about some of the more Viable cave you Guys you listed revenue bookings final retention Attrition customer lifecycle value philosophy aside time times revenue growth genes that promote our customers action which What do you think is the most Jews in which one do you think is most under used
12:04 Ah I think are obviously revenue and margins are some of the industry standard across I think are all industries bet my backgrounds and Telco and Cyber so I also lean to the wholesale the scenario the recurring revenue which then turns into sort of the bookings and funnel analysis near Ah
12:27 retention goes to attrition and am Darcy or visa other very much tied together you can a those numbers around and come up with the same kind of analysis NPR and customer satisfaction to me is very fluffy Ah it's always subjective and objective AH so well in all our industries depend on those numbers it's not something that has a P M I would depend upon of course I'm going to be dealing with ticket management and the quality of the product but from a much more objective than subjective perspective I think the empty as something that's gotten so out of whack because people now manage to it right and if I do it at nine and ten means you had a great servant so give me a nine or ten eye primer autobots
13:19 I think a lot of these as a as a as a
13:23 as a metric get lost EM Ps in customer satisfaction as a number isn't it's interesting and pleasant customer Satisfaction As process within the organization to drive customer service and drive change management is Elizabeth those companies that a best practice around US actually integrate this into their business Process when I was a me you know we had cosmos at where we used at Piazza we also customer said that went out after every cell that was made and that data would come back in and root itself and it was on my shitty it's strategic architecture and it was part of my Bonus and Guess what you know being the coin operated little guy that I am if it was on My Bonus Em in stock became back that was negative the street but he has found it's way on the top of my to do list for my chair though you know it's it's like everything Else I was I was loosing for I was thinking though one of the things that we do when you look at like market sizing and canned salmon sob No ruby took up in a we talk about Sam Sam might be a number but it's also a capacity limitation that needs to be worked on and we we look at metrics as just numbers and metrics tell story and idol A lot of organizations want to actually understand the numbers in a way to else that the story is laying out in order to make change within the organization can I think the anyone that may start cracking into this group would also become Lance home related to regulatory security privacy am a cyborg also I'm a very focused on making sure that both the environment the data is properly manage to compliance levels that are required in whatever industry you're in no I I think that's a key for any product understand those have to thank Steve you have any thoughts on these metrics
15:29 I spent ah Yeah I'm looking at a lot of these again thinking toward things like ah market product fit or market problem fit
15:39 and one in particular that I've always been quite fascinated by is is really doing funnel metrics you know you get a thousand people in the funnel and you know by the time they get to the demo it's whittled down to ten people or something and you just go oh where's the flaw I mean what happened here can end and so the conversion rates tell you things that are really insightful it's like you promised more than you deliver or you or your promises in a very good one you know I win eighty percent of the people who downloaded use it and love it then we've got top of funnel problem with you know if people downloaded never used again we have a bottom of the funnel problem and I I think I've always been fascinated by looking at conversion rates in particular as it relates to you know have we actually got the right product or widget a war we have the right product but we're just not talk about it right steve at long ago I shared with you in a model easy it is for blocker mine was there's some things are market something are products of things are strategy things or execution and so that had four blocks prop market strategy who has the problem was segmentation you know Products derived you that's your concept of how you're going to solve that address that problem to execution is translating that concept into a product and market execution is then the actual marketing and selling of it and what I would tell people is you tell me where the hole in your final is if if you're lead cover if if if you're a reach and led conversion on American campaign is really bad you've got a market strategy problem you don't understand the segment or any donors and their problems so you you hit people you said what you could him and nobody was interested because your Markus Rogers bad that being said if you get good conversion there and it moves to the first call and the first call we get a chance to tell them how we're Gonna help of concept right here's how we would help you if you lose a lot if if their whole is there it's a product strategy problem they self identify they have the problem but then when we told them how we're Gonna have them like it right you move Pass that to a demo were a trial if they get a demo or trial then they fall off you got a product execution problem you told me how you're going to help me and I thought ooh well I'm interested than you show me to make it right and you prove that a sales tax or marketing which is a little is more about pricing and sales that I of out but it it's a strategic way to look at that and I make sense for thinking about that a product lifecycle because it helps you understand what those holes are yeah absolutely one last question here and is the leading question for me how important is doing a trailing twelve month or something that's a overtime over periods verses recent period
18:29 I think It's I think it's important I get I use we use pressure cookers here okay and so it goes pressure curves actually have a day in big spots structural changes so it's it's a trailing twelve over A trailer agree and you can actually start to see the structural change in the market because up because she'll she'll get the F B twelve is going up and three is going up person in the twelve is Gonna start upon the market up and you'll start to see things happening and I just comes from I am desperate days as well say is the same methodology I use for my portfolio Ah but I I think it's really important you know specially do in a business like ours where conversion might be eight months we will get the sale and make don't we don't have revenue for eight months on that sell tickets version takes a look so if it's really bad because trends
19:25 am and guy too I I it's like your speedometer is irrelevant right Yeah except you shouldn't be exceeding the speed limit but when you add your odometer and your speedometer Now you're on something relevant we now have a trend that says your averaging you know this many miles per hour and so now you can start doing math but if you just say hey I am currently going seventy two miles an hour you can't extrapolate that I mean that that doesn't even take into account being pulled over for speeding but you can't sustain that seventy two so you've Gotta have it over over time and average over time your thoughts before before Yeah I'm sort of trying to balance my product management versus my sales hat here
20:18 because China market than though the revenue that is sort of the self responsibility Ah I think from a product management perspectives it can be different aspects you need to focus on because apparently the kind of revenue also has a lot of marketing aspects that are not necessarily the responsibility of product management per se who AH so there's a bit of a crossover there so what can you can add know product management led what can you control versus an overall business led ah some time to market sort of says in other stats when are you getting it into the market so what is the development cycle versus converting the the sales funnel or are closing was views on on boarding bridges there is different function I think from Norwood which goes back the different phases of where you are a product lifecycle what different metrics to to be going forward with Yeah so Awesome What I hope you can i write Laurie thank you so much for your time we'll make sure we're also promote the article again in what will hopefully see you're getting on here soon thanks to worry about
21:32 all right The poll was what phase of product life cycle is the most difficult to manage I obviously I answered decline in the reason I said decline is that I was debating between product market fit inception in decline In the reality is if you're in decline you're already trying to find product market fit but you're also trying to manage the expectations of the business we've got revenues going down so it's not just a you're doing almost both at the same time that makes sense thief
22:03 Yeah I'm just I'm using my my Curious face cause a would seem to me that decline would be the easiest to manage that that I think the difficulty and coat in decline is managing executive expectations of their like your product is in decline and it's time to shoot it and they're like oh my Gosh that's the product that's our flagship product that's the one that I personally invented and you're like C'mon get the emotions out here the numbers tell me thus but that was taboo right now out that was my that was the reason for decline in I looked at the climb with that and I look at product market fit with all the hands on work actually to figure out how to pivot and adjust and do ever to get to it In my view is in maybe this is being putting my my thoughts on it often if you're in decline you need to be fine and the next growth curve already you you're almost is Julie yes too late so you're having to deal with even in the rearview mirror who late trying to get to it so it was the end of the executive staff with the also known oh shit what do we do next Yeah I'm in the hospital with a heart attack going I should eat better
23:14 sorry do you missed it you should have been doing that stuff twenty years ago yes yeah but the reality they were either were in every client that I've ever had and every company I've ever worked for you know the rationalization a problem it's a it's incredible how much money is spent on servicing all platforms and all products and maintaining customers on old systems it's millions and millions of dollars a company spend that I've won Hell was projects where we got in to rationalize the the product said we just had a product where we had one customer and I mean it should have been should August either a customer should have been OH sept sept on their merry way the products should have been shut down we whispered that the loss was he wasn't even he couldn't even give a soul with low dose of the value of this product in the market enter this one customer at a loss is that we were incurring on it was just incredible ads like why do we need by infinity and nobody want the Ghetto nobody want to get rid of it it was it was like you we have we hope you can imagine what I mean The money we spend in rationalizing why it should be in the portfolio
24:29 that alone should have been the reason to get rid of it and I've seen this all I've I chose declined because I think I think coming into a product
24:40 you can you give inanimate I think you can fake the numbers above the show product market fit an egg I get somebody to invest in you're in the education an end of your child up and bring your child to market I think the other stages there are clear deliverables around that is potentially growing you know you're going to be expanding in a lot of is Gonna be technology and and maybe other other parts of the ecosystem much you Gonna collapse me and it's always been this way
25:13 to everything that we're talking about you know by the time you get to the you should be on the next product and it's it's it's easier said than done where are you where are you you
25:25 go from platform to platform excuse me a migrate customers over it you know there's a difference between extension and platform migration and declined to me as platform migration bought a really really tricky thing to do and I've never seen a company I'll my Experience I've never seen company doing well rob have you heard me tell my child handy second curse story La You know Charles andy is the business I'm from London School of Economics services business he tells a story about being in Dublin and heading to the town of of AkA states heard the story from me like too many times this past month alone and he's got lost nas car and he found a guy walking a dog stops car and says Hey I'm trying to get to a aka can you help me get off to write easy go up the hill go down the hill you're going to come to a creek across the creek as a bard's davies but our big red sign you can't miss it you got that up the hill down the hill get to a creek davies by is Yeah half a mile before you get there turn right
26:28 I am in the point Is
26:32 When you're doing product lifecycle management exactly especially when you get out of maturity decline too often we turn half mile after which we don't we don't start thinking about where we should turn into a half mile past where we should have right in the heart of the problem of the problem is theoretically we always think about a normally distributed curve yeah right an and M be more up and everything else just Yeah we think boo boo boo every product falls at it's not IT doesn't follow that an ill in and never has fallen about it I think it throws people off because this product might be a product a wall will outperform the market and growing in any big contract to the market for them product they come you know and so at any you know once
27:23 you have these ass shaped curves and the F shape the shape curves will continue to get shorter and shorter you know as you start do is we start to bring more and more digital products to market and I don't think we think about that we we go from our experience it took us five months to build it and eight months before we start to get traction and we got a couple he coils and we still we tend to think that same bias and put it on it and who our expectations through forecasting of what it's Gonna do and performance measurement of what it's Gonna do is always wrong and so we never go back in This the learning loop is Adamant that Knowledge loop is never there and so we continue to make the same mistakes and you can see it in the way we bring products to market and this is not just broad reaches everywhere how companies bring products to market a company's forecast and the expo Asian what they give it up how they managed to the product lifecycle and how they you know and how they migrate their customers over time even to the point where with a what a product is about to decline you know be the investment that you would make modernize a platform to maintain the margin were thinking top line so we we we would have forced the top line revenue but I should be saying hold that this product is ninety percent of the market we have the majority the customers we had to me our customers and we have to be able to deliver to the bottom line more more canny profit is not the way to be I get to a certain point in life in and everything I should my expenses are lower in everything she dropped to the bottom line I care because I got so much tech I have the service and we don't plan for that so it's not just a prodigal up and down it's a product going up maintaining the the light you know it's like a party maintaining your body at a at a certain bad out Grisham novels and help borrow more money into maintaining your health we need to think about their right at the beginning and make and change the platform we need to do that we need a service and eliminate the tech debt throughout the the The lifecycle so that by the time you get to maturity it's all fun to bottom item and are paying for things that we mistakes we made back in about ten years ago
29:39 so one thing I'm very good at keeping my state of health had a very bad level so don't have to worry about that
29:45 second imus I have to feel that you're going through a whole bunch of tech that debates at your company because you mentioned tech that like five times our hits the heck yeah well
29:57 OH but you know everybody is right and end of UC a well known company whose name you would now they are A I hardly well Yeah I'm sorry
30:09 they acquired three competitors now they have for products in the same category and of course you know what it is right the strategy as offload three of those onto the flagship product convert everybody over but they forgot it well they didn't forget The sales people didn't like that answer so the sales people continued to sell all four of the products and so now they got no benefit from the acquisition
30:41 they've got die There there's an effectively running for companies all under one name and they're not getting any of the benefit of you know focusing all their energies on one product and
30:55 to me that is that that's like a combination of technical debt and just a complete absence of leadership
31:03 that there there's a reason why more than fifty percent of acquisitions fail ninety
31:10 and I thought the number was much higher than that I thought I read an H B R report that said effectively all acquisitions fail
31:20 I I've seen you know I've I look at our friend frank tate what he did with using bill by as a product strategy right and gave of opponents that aren't aren't competitors every time i see people by competitors is never worked I've cause I've I've been there when we bought the low price competitor and what happened somebody else emerge as a low priced competitor and all those people who haven't been paying for low price went back to the low price because that was this segment they were in their percent of the Rim and Ah where did all the
31:51 good shit rob are we going to get I was Gonna ask an article on your white things bother to be honest question I was Gonna ask Eve what you if he had voted or if he hadn't which one would he vote while I had voted for inception now I and it was it ties back to you what I'm saying earlier than the metrics we play with are all about the now revenue profitability in a cost and none of those are now When You're in the It's Inception Phase I mean as I think I may have already said we should be you don't tracking things like experiments and interviews and customer engagement but there's no traditional metrics around that that management would buy off on mean if you said I'm Gonna pay a bonus to my Guy here mind my New Product manager is Gonna do you know experiments and we're Gonna pay for the experiment Everybody was I will wait in I what about revenue and you're like wealth wrong thing and end you know this this goes way back to my first proper management job we had no real voice of the customer at all and my Boss said you know what I'm Gonna pay you a bonus to make twelve calls a quarter and he ran into great deal of friction from his boss sang it Ah well there's Nope I cut paying people visiting people isn't you know it isn't revenue and he and he's like the that the issue we're having is not this year's revenue but next year's revenue is it that's a place where it originally from bhopal up Yes Okay and I care about you I can only punish you with philly within the fiscal year riding that's part of our B also it's great if it's part of Nature's bonus structure but I only punish you for what you doing in this fiscal year actually that might not be a bonus right primer right and yet the only thing they did put the issue this company had of course as they were completely sales driven and so everything was in the context of revenue and what happened with the other product managers who were being paid a bonus on revenue is they all became sales engineers
34:09 the sales guy would call his me and I'm gonna you can you come help help me out and you're like Hell Yeah I'm there cause my Bonus is contingent upon you close big deals right there you got your blog you you get what you pay for right Yeah high Court coin operated right and have you guys read the four zones hi Jeffrey more easy Zelda when they're the to win it talks about the five young that to me that helps with that because it's inception up getting a product market fit those experiments happen in the incubators zone right some of them once they've moved into more maturity and growth as I can move up into the operating don't AH but then you've got the transformations on so it actually you know try to get different pianos with different results looking for it's an interesting way to look at how you could do it I you were Gonna say about acquisitions know I was I wanted me to cover you know when you look at development spend it over for the most part most companies follow a garden with app which was the run as for have you look at it bad that run piece of somebody's budget that non discretionary spending can be fifty percent is probably close the figures percent across industries you know we started breaking out rob where we have product my tech run we have grow even grow revenue seems map to the orgy take a bike or able to see now is how much of it is truly tech that purses Prada coming in doing some type of It has begun to our up efficiency and then we started going back to look you know you're asking you Gonna do a modernization or some type of ebay growth how much it and now we trying to figure out how to because it's it's a long tail on either grow I think that's part of the problem and I will want a similar acquisition is acquisitions fell because of lack of synergy it looks good on paper they can't tell the story to the marketplace it you know I've I've seen very few know even up for average which Is by far one of the best companies to acquire in and and uM and bring into a casino in to actually bring into accompanying ever get the the Opposition aligned into the company it's it's a separate it's always a separate business unit you know It takes a long time competing platforms things about plug and play feel the world is not a plug and play world an API so you know you need API strategies you need all that migraine customers we have one division where we have four or five platforms to do the same thing we're trying to rationalize you know you did so you know uM
36:47 acquisitions fell because the promise of synergy just has never able ever seen them
36:55 yet we just Gotta Hello invested a way to to maybe it's eliminate those those latter images bring technology but we also don't tell coherent story to the marketplace the market is compute What do you know what we're what we're trying to bring to them than the value of it well in now everything seems easy at the powerpoint level
37:16 I would steal had eye logo Harbor
37:20 I with that said let's move into the first open ended question we have what is the biggest challenge with product lifecycle management
37:30 Iran first
37:33 ROV what he is I always just going to say
37:36 it's Gotta be be lack of data and ensure we would tie you measure what stage you're at I think is a I think if the data was there were clear about the you know what what maturity actually need another properly as A I we are properly defined every stage it's different every product in every company but I I truly believe if I was a sailor is somebody inside progress today is what stage of growth Because we use horizons was one authorizing this is him I think you have three different we have three arises I can get three different answers email maybe too because nobody would think it's in the early stage
38:18 in charlotte had this vague definitions and in data
38:22 well but isn't aren't those four stages defined by the rate of change
38:30 I mean when you're in a less than forty five degrees and then you become more than forty five degrees you hit the hockey stick so you're now in the growth phase and then when you go from less than forty five degrees to more than forty five degrees then you're in the stability but the mature phase yeah but it's more with the Buddhists
38:50 in Tibet zoo products typically work in a step wise fashion and so it's very hard to determine where you are with you never the hockey stick your staff and it also got me up meat of and I'll get Polyglot plateau it so I think I think definition leave idea it's just it looks good on paper you know I'm Gonna use everything looks good and bad points but reality is you know reality is we sell we plateau we sell we plateau we go down a little we sell we gotta have you up to the market we watch it which is why I trying to month and I love the year be another three months over twelve month as a way to do that something Stephen I started I've talked about before is that even a product and ask curve is really made up of a whole bunch of smaller curse right so that sort of step Wise it if you if you talk every Doula what good job of segmenting and subs betting your market you're you're driving that right okay Here's the next one we're going to win you're you're continually get that second group to start half mile before you get to the crate Ah in and it can get you smoke but teer the reality is it always changes each sub segments Gonna adopt a little differently don't have to a change change your language there Ah but I love the I love the cause Yeah the step is the exactly more than that verses the smooth Steve your your your your your take on this while you know when in doubt I always go back to roles and it occurred to me only later in life that every product management job I had was for a product in a different part of the lifecycle and so one company I needed business skills and in another company I needed technical skills and in my Funding management job I really need a sales and marketing skills and so to me the biggest challenge in lifecycle management is is recognizing that we need three or melt more but at least three very different Mine's in managing products at different stages of the lifecycle
40:57 and so you know i came in with a sales and marketing background in mice my first job was great my second job they threw me in to R P O roll a product owner role and suddenly I'm nerd now with the nerds and the nerd already on you now and I'm like I can't even have conversations with you guys because you know I I'm I'm a star wars guy not a star trek guy
41:22 it it it it it is jokes I'm thinking about I've often been that mature decline person who has to figure out the next curve ah doing that is different than being the person helping drive growth and how to do with there Yeah I think I think it's really fascinating to think about product lifecycle reflected in the role of a person I mean that is I'm I'M just thinking about what you know you're either a riddle launching am thinking in a way evaluate the market do discovery or you spend all your time with technology because you be maintaining the product and and into more technology job versus you know or you're We are warriors you know you try we don't really have anything we don't really have people to think back into this but or you order be somebody adult of lifecycle stages to grants roles were you thinking about what's what's next
42:15 never thought about it that way and it's really fascinating could to put that spin on it well this is this is something less obsessed me over the last few years is that we've got this one title product manager and it means a hundred and sixty five diff Banks depending on what company around right and I've had that title three times and I've had extremely different expectations in off all three times and I think Does ultimately translate to now next and future you know that now job if your product is is in the now if you're responsible for it you know increasing the now that means you're you're growth guy it means you need to be doing sales and marketing stuff if you're in the next mode in what is refocusing on what's Gonna be in the next release you need to be technical and if you're thinking about the future you need to really be systematic and and well a business first and I know business is where grant is strong and I'm just by tend to be stronger in sales and marketing although I have learned to be strong in working with technology and I love working with developers I've gotten fairly irritated with everyone else but I loved developers now and those are you know very different mindsets so that's a view to take back to the office rob enact do we have the the we've got the right people the question is whether We're asking them to wear the right hat Yeah well I think it's I think it's really important it's it's ad by completely agree Steve I might at what when I wrote this question my my first thought was was part of that
43:53 we judge We will look at products in the rearview mirror not the not the front window and too often the way that companies manage life cycles in a rear view mirror which is sort of goes to that you know turn half mile before you get there type stuff but you know then rob you Gonna be start to think about technical debt in how the decisions you make earlier in the lifecycle can have a major impact on the decisions that you have to make at the later stages of the lifecycle you talk about getting to that place where you're the dominant market share yet to have all this technical debt you have to reinvest in instead of dropping stuff down
44:33 in also on technical debt started coming back from My is one of the biggest challenges with the lifecycle because it's the trade off you make early that cost you later he wrote and furthermore the reason tech debt so so bad and so systemic is it's below the line right I mean nobody says hey i we really need to reinvest in the architecture to increase sales there's always going to be new feature request a new is something about you know in the visible spectra and you know my analogy is I want to replace my carpet but my roof leaks and who wants to replace their road
45:18 I mean that's no fun I want to replace the carpet and maybe I'll do that right before sell the house right but if I live here much longer I think I'm Gonna have to repair that roof and nobody wants to pay for that and that's that I think the real challenge we have with that inside a company nobody in the executive ranks except perhaps the VP of development wants to pay for what nobody knows how much it is how it is costing I can tell you you know based on looks it is I've seen him I've had extensive conversations with gardner about Us it's it's fifty percent so you take companies that have hundreds of millions of dollars that they spend in technology development you know and half it's going to take that going to going to run go to that rhythm you know it's it's it's it's my boggling it is my body is at those are those are steady state projects versus priority projects which means that you are it's underneath the radar does not help it it's it's lesser charge it hours yourselves people are going all got a new thing I can salads is just keeping their thing the thing there is all going right up
46:29 I could make an argument maybe this is a whole different topic that the problem of technical debt as the Dane righty steve you use the analogy and I'll I've written a blog on this right the guy that
46:42 whole bunch of houses sold their neighborhood this year because of In a cove and everything else but if you if you look at what how quickly houses sell and for what prices they sell all of based on the technical debt the roof the driveway the gutters the siding at ito the kitchen right if you haven't updated your kitchen it's a concept everybody a lot people struggle attacked up it's a concept that you can take to that your roof forces your carpet versus your driveway versus your gutters versus your kitchen now because of the miserable economic laws are Yeah about the everyday world When you were going to acquire a company in you enjoy doing code evaluation and you will look at the code in say holy shit there's a ton of debt tax on this code because it's it's out of you know it's out of whatever at a sacrifice and I think it's the Bile I think it's about Trust me the realm of people don't like to hear it because it means if something's wrong with the architecture but what could york Texas not scalable were monetize but I think it's the best way to describe it because about product management standpoint I have you know I have to do this before I can do that back in the area the latter make me more money you now I get it Yeah and you know that the origin of it is it was actually I think a reference back to credit cards you know at some point you're in so much financial debt that all you're doing is paying dad on the debt you know you're you're you're likely you are to try You're You're never paying down the principal you're just paying off the credit card that you know the minimum railroad it was getting worse and worse and worse and I think that's why whoever created this this metaphor shows the word debt which I think is actually quite accurate I mean you see you know these kids coming out of college with a hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of economic dad financial debt and you go you know let's do some math on the back of a napkin here it will take The rest of your life to pay off that debt unless you know one of US dies and leaves you a lot of money there
48:46 and and you know people wanna hear that but it's it's A similar reality
48:55 They're also just because the other Workplace I was gone was thinking on this was what rob talked about with the Oscars and how every s curve is different for every market he so a lot of stuff there see you actually read ahead did you know has this was your
49:15 OH well hey you know armed will just rewind cut that out stick that here
49:21 you know absolutely I I I have worked with people like you who are strong business heads who are good on the front end and maybe on the back end and Ah my background is primarily sales and marketing I'm really good at the now phase like the hyper growth phase I've worked with really good technical people who are better at the steady state and in maintaining the health of a product over time which which I have little patience with so I think you know between the three of US we're probably almost one good pratham yeah
49:58 absolutely what do you think of I mean we talked about it before when we're talking about that the roles of three Rolls yeah what's your take on how does fragments me to change as it moves through I cycle
50:10 I have golfing you is thinking is that we need to have roles here we just went through this romantic thing dinner at the officer you know We're assuming the assumption we're making is that a product manager should be able to handle the life cycle of a product and Yeah I already miss I reject Yeah i I agree with you I've always said I will go through this I I said you know the a product managers that are working on mature architectures that's Gonna be different than a product manager that's working on something that's relatively new to the market and growing but we we sort of said product manager here's a thing I I I I I like the way you put it simply reinforces of the things I was thinking earlier we were going through our role mandates and I think that's right I think the I think that if you're going if you're if I had if I had my way and I could structure the organization I probably would structure it differently So yes Little our Hallway where you know you have product marketing serves around this product strategy there's a growth person you know there's at that sales engineer or we call the product specialist actually interacts with you with the sales organization Adam you got this this guy somewhere in the middle of the product manager seizure life you know I don't i don't know of any company or breaks it down my cat by all that much but is a cleaner what it is it's the equivalent of Doctor
51:46 Product manager is the equivalent of doctor you're like I need to go to a doctor I call one eight hundred the doctor and say I need some help doctor and I go all white paint oH hang on what it what is your issue you know is it your left ear or your right ear because we need to send you to the appropriate specialist right
52:07 so there's a thousand different specialties within medical right within Doctor and yet Yeah Yeah I'm in it so it's almost like product manager is now like a salutation he said we need to call you a product manager Johnson now and what is your specialty while I'm an internist you now I I'm I'm a growth Guy I'm
52:33 a technical now it it's interesting you say that because I always I would always snoop so we said you know I take I'm in product management but I will always say my specialty is new products health I like the guy you call if you have somebody that's that's aging Yeah I'm the front end innovation bring to market guy Yeah i Wanna i Wanna worth it I don't have all the five getting pregnant and birthing the thing and then I want to give it off to get up there is to raise right so you're an obstetrician the FISA and I'm a gerontologist at facts
53:11 that that world or another or another taker but the thing is rob you know we laugh about that but you see job descriptions for four positions you know sometimes it's just a product manager but sometimes it's a new experience taking new products right to marking and sometimes the ones I always tended to get worthy you know turn around
53:37 once right A drilling sense given your your skillset yeah but given you know it's a circle my turn around stuff nine times out of ten was launching a new product is now launching a new product from a base so you already haven't seen this this we get back to answer right that's why I'm such a lover of romance lives is my job is always to figure out okay yes market penetration is full okay what are our options in the options were always I everyday or new products i never did diversification or or end of life writing it's it's lived it's either work we there were five miles path region turned it's too late or you know The leaders of Gone away right and needs change and emerge and that's why the at every S curve is different right if blackberries ask her was they didn't take in consideration two thousand and seven the iphone right they thought they were still in the growth Portion but factors outside of their mama you could argue that either controller knox I know that they talk to the carriers not the customers AH but you know There's a time where you see them ask for specialty if it's front end or back end
54:53 an end you don't think one more rant where did the same thing with salespeople now is this guy hung around her erudite
55:03 and you're like how so anyway I I that's a good way to finish up I think the big challenge of of product management is that product management mean so many differ things and we oughta have maybe new titles or at least specialty areas as we mature the profession I I love that idea The final question would do a rapid fire for a new product manager what would your best advice be to help them manage the lifecycle of the product robb
55:35 collect data ask lots of questions okay Steve
55:40 Yeah I'm Gonna have to repeat ditto there rob but that you don't in in is certainly in every new role I've had a I really have done that I've gone to sales I've gone to marketing I've gone to development I'm Gonna support and in every case I've said you know I want to do well here heath stuff like my last job now I want to do well here you know what do you need an in general always but they end up saying is I need to know persona in their problems so
56:13 ultimately i guess my insight always ends up being go visit a dozen customers before you start making decisions God Dammit Steve you You're going down a whole pad an hour i Gotta go talk to customers and then you just brought that right and at the end because that's mine it's it's it's sorry six that you sixty ten go talk to six or ten customers and you will learn more about where you are in your life cycle than all the data combined the operable programmer thing is I'm going to have to drop off put up we you know ugh just thinking about this some states such as trigger this it as products machover you have more more must have features and so you get more more table stakes we just started using cow to actually help look at our our privatization and you really can see a lot of our features have have moved into that indifferent stage as you go from you know that that wow attractive too must have you indifference that the market you might not be in a mature market but the product is maturing anything and that's got by surprise and put stress on are the AH the ecosystem at you Plan and that's another thing that I think we need to take into account effect understand is you don't price too often I see people prioritize new features which are are now indifferent wish it were different a year ago Yeah Right right I did all my friends Guys have a really good ASs as well we say Monday the question comes out whether the poll on Fridays join us on the call so thank you guys so much have a great weekend

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