Product Management 2021 and Beyond

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TOTW - Product Management 2021 and Beyond
0:00 so Stephen I decided you know will bring his back with a bang and go with a big topic but it seems be writing about because of the work from home and stay from home everything else
0:11 it's worse product management go Twenty twenty one and beyond so we opened up with our
0:19 Monday open ended question to ask people their thoughts and I am going to go through just sort some of these I'll I'll give you guys a chance if you want to do that to comment on them but here's sort of the core Essence we got ongoing disruption will give product management me the the opportunity opportunity to to truly truly become become business business leaders leaders it's it's best best position particularly to leave the the organization organization through through change change
0:40 as as more more customers customers users users work work from from home home product Product management management getting getting outside outside the the building building gets gets challenge challenged in and product product teams teams need they to have have methods methods and and practices practices to conduct The the job job remotely remotely
0:51 and and a celebration celebration of of technologies technologies that that automate automate and and streamline streamline a a lot lot of of work work that that product Alec members managers do do looking looking for for signs signs that of engineering engineering organizations organizations are are becoming becoming more more reactive reactive incompetent incompetent leadership leadership will will be be critical critical to to lead lead the the team's team's accompany company company these just are some of These these are are paraphrased paraphrased to to fit fit them them all all on on the the same same thing thing markets markets needs needs are are changing changing in in most most articles articles and and we we have have easier easier remote access access to to customers customers this this is is an an opportunity opportunity problem if if it it needs needs to to get get better better at at marketing marketing and and demonstrate demonstrating the the value value of of product product management management as as a a business business role role without Without that that we we will will undercapitalize under capitalized on on the the business business opportunity opportunity that that twenty twenty twenty twenty is is grating creating and then then finally finally the the realization realization that that in in order order to to innovate innovate on on a a continuous continuous basis basis leaders leaders must must trust trust their their teams teams in in value via than than each each for for their their individual individual strengths strengths we we need need to to push push decision decision making making the a product product managers managers and and there their teams too seems as as they they have have access access to to more more information information so so he sort sort of of wide wide ranging ranging some some similarities similarities jason jason if if you're you're up up for for it it I'm I'm going going to to go go to to that that middle middle one one which which I I know know is is yours yours the the acceleration acceleration of of technology technology that that automate automate and and streamline streamline a a lot lot of of the the work work that that product product managers managers do do I'd I'd love love to to get get you're you're you're you're you're your thought thought on on how how is is technology technology going going to to change translate the light that that the the job job of of product product management management
1:55 so so
1:58 I I don't don't know know that that it it changes changes the the job job of of product product management management Director directly it it just just changes changes how how we we do do the the job job AH AH so so up up when when I I spend spend my my time time at at IBM IBM we we were were very very focused focused on on cognitive cognitive technology technology and and artificial artificial intelligence intelligence technology technology and and the the premise premise that that we we were were working working under under was was very very much much that that A A I I is is not not going going to to replace replace the a human human worker worker it's it's going going to to work work beside beside the the human human worker worker and and change change how how we we do do things things says says I I look look at at how how technology technology
2:31 changes changes the the way way we we do do our our job job we we get get additional additional assistance assistance from from it it but but leveraging leveraging the the right right tools tools and and knowing knowing the the right right tools tools and and how how to to use use them them effectively effectively becomes becomes increasingly increasingly important important whether whether it's it's a a I I've driven driven which which I I think think I I think think we're we're probably probably a a good good five five ten ten years years away away from from Serious Syria yes a a I I integration integration into into the the work work product product management management does does rather rather go go see see some some novel novel use use cases cases continue continue to to emerge emerge in in the the over over the the next next couple couple of of years years I I think think there's there's a a lot lot of of opportunity opportunity right right now now but but in in In terms terms of of being being trans transferred formative Primitive and and they they were were five five to to ten ten years years away away from from that that
3:06 for so there's those Gonna Caribbean be a at how technology tough challenge glad glad you're you're going Gonna to be be a a next next inflection inflection point point when when that that comes comes in in and and and and transforms transforms it it again again Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah and and I I don't don't think think I i I I don't don't see See any any evidence evidence yet yet that that this this inflection inflection point point the the Pandemic pandemic the the remote remote work work I I don't don't think think that's that's that that this this inflection inflection point point has has impacted impact of that that timeline timeline yet yet it will will be be interesting interesting to to see see how how it it does does I I haven't haven't seen seen any any evidence evidence of that that Yeah Yeah I love Steve Steve and and I I were were talking talking earlier earlier this this week week in and one one of of the the issues issues of of things things I I was was thinking thinking about about was was the the reality reality is is if if you you look look at at product product management management as as a a percentage percentage of of headcount headcount in in any any company company is it's probably probably lower lower down down the the totem totem pole pole of of where where you you would would prioritize prioritize putting The that technology technology because because if if you've you've got got a a hundred hundred developers developers and into two two verses verses ten ten product product managers managers you'd you'd rather rather make make more more efficient efficient hundred hundred and and the ten ten
3:56 correct correct up I agree agree with with that that completely completely at at the the same same time time so so it's it's going going to to be be incumbent incumbent on on product product managers jurors to to understand understand the the technology technology options options that that are are available available to to them them how how to to deploy deploy them them how how to to build build the the case case for for them them and and pick the ones ones that that are are most most useful useful to to helping helping them them maximize maximize their their effectiveness effectiveness so so I I think think that's that's one one of of the the big big opportunities opportunities that that even even down down at at the the product product owner owner level level at at the the most most junior junior levels levels are are continuing continuing to to discover discover and and elevate elevate and and understand understand the the technology technology landscape landscape is is Gonna Gonna be be critically critically AMP a a critically critically important important skill skill for for product product managers managers of a makes mexico a ton of Says Sense Steve Steve a a handful handful these these questions questions get get to to the the Elk Elk I I I I started started with with the the optimistic optimistic but but the The Opportunity opportunity for for product product management management to to truly truly become become business business leaders leaders to to miss miss strengthen strengthen that that talk talked to to me me about about where where you you see see that that opportunity opportunity going going
4:48 well well you you know know it's it's a it's it's scary scary to to me me what What I've I've seen seen over over the the last last decade decade is is that that product product managers managers have have become become product product owners owners have have become become business business analysts analysts and and I'm I'm seeing seeing product product marketing marketing step step into into the the strategic strategic cloyd void
5:04 a a lot lot of of the the companies companies I I work work with with now now you you know know the the the the the the C C E E O O is is saying saying you you know know I'm I'm I'm I'm wanting wanting somebody somebody to to help help me me decide decide whether whether we're we're Gonna going to go go into into new new markets markets or or new new products products or or both both and and product product management management is is not not my my counselor counselor in in this this in you know our I'm I'm turning turning to to product product marketing marketing since since
5:27 well well since since I I I I think think it you year as as much much as as we we all all love love angle angle I I think think agile agile poorly Poorly implemented implemented has has caused caused a product product managers managers to to become become Technicians Technicians rather rather than than business business leaders leaders and and of of course course my my focus focus when when I I work work with with teams teams is is you you know know product product managers managers by by whatever whatever title title need need to to be be be the The experts experts on on the the market market in in the the business business and and sometimes sometimes when when I I say say that that I I get get dumb dumb locks locks i i mean mean certainly certainly from from
5:57 the the technically technically oriented oriented they're they're like like oh oh well well now now you you don't don't need need know know the the market market you you need need another another technique technology Jay Like like everybody everybody knows knows the the technology technology or or we we need need to to know know is is how how to to apply apply the the technology technology to to a a business business problem problem and in their they're like like are are are are you you sure sure this this product product management management
6:14 so so I'm I'm Hope Hope I I am but but but I I mean mean this this is is my my mission Mission right right this This is is what what we're we're hoping hoping to to do do is is get get product product managers managers really reengage engaged as as business business leaders leaders and and not not as as secretary secretary said said development development
6:28 who who is is a a great grad so so it's it's interesting interesting uM So so hi hi everybody everybody is is my my first first time time here here I'm I'm Rob Rob Goldberg Goldberg from from abroad abroad rich rich and and proud proud Robbers about about about the the call call you you in in on on this if epic epic thanks thanks so so it's it's interesting interesting cause cause we've we've um um you you know know
6:46 we've We've we've we've seen seen stresses stresses out out our call call located okay the teams teams so so you you know know we it tell a lot is is removed removed from from waterfall waterfall to to agile agile we've we've got got a a lot lot to to call call okay okay teams teams create create developing developing pies pause that that enable enable the the product product management management organization organization to to work work closely closely closer Also ah with with the development Goldman team team we we have have out out where wherein in in in an an inordinate inordinate amount amount of of iterations iterations I I go go through through was was were were were were getting getting getting getting it it right right so since be be what what I've I've noticed noticed is is that that we've we've had had an an acceleration acceleration of of tools tools so so as as we we hear are this this is is also also speaks speaks to to the the where where are we we see See disruption disruption in in our our market market is is this this digital digital acceleration acceleration of of certain certain tools tools that that are are now now enabling enabling the the product product management management organization organization steve's Steve's comment comment about about how how it's it's gone gone from from being a product Product map met from from product product manager manager at at a a business business owner owner them the marketing Arguing we we see see it it coming coming a mile now from from our our customer customer service service organization organization that's that's customer customer facing facing and egg with with the the tools tools were were finally finally able able to to see see if if somebody somebody puts puts in in a a request request for or something something that a product product management management housing housing boom alerted alerted to to it's it's now now coming coming up up as as an an alert alert in in our our tool tool so so we we never never had had that that before before so so we'll we're see seeing we're we're starting starting to to see see more more success success and and more more you you know know well at these these visibility visibility into into things things Yeah Oh I i just just finished boosted allowances allowances we we were were looking looking at at on home what one our on top top projects projects are are verses verses what what our our total total spend spend is is in an it it up up two two thirds thirds of of our our our our of of our our spend spend is is not not an an art art not like coming oh against against a a top our project projects and that I was was part of of the the firing vibrancy see see this this thing thing starting starting to to kick pick up up his his me me go go kick kick out out has has become become more more more more into into these these digital digital tools tools and and allows allows them them to the see sea it at the the at about bat escalation escalation of of approval approval
8:24 it's it's I just just like a it three be FM I I I was was the the I I was was reading reading Ah I've read Rita in McGrath the grass Seeing seeing around around corners Corners and and I I think think was was Andy Andy Grove's Grove's you you quoted quoted saying saying you you know know change Change starts starts happening happening ice ice starts starts melting melting at at the the edge edge and and if if you you can't can't enable enable the the edge edge of of your your organization organization sales sales customer customer support support services services to to give give you you that that feedback feedback back back in in You're you're you're you're missing missing out out on on opportunities opportunities nice nice to to see see technology technology filling filling and in a a place place for for that at the to happen happen
8:50 rub rob you people aren't on that that look Lucky God good it's it's a a great great book book Yes yes that's that's an an awesome awesome book book what OH and Anita Anita Perfect perfect Timing Timing I I was was going going to to actually actually pivot pivot to to you you rob rob you you talked talked about about some some distress distress from from the the teams teams in in this this Co Co located located in in this this in in this this round round people people are are dealing doing with now now I I was was actually actually on on the the phone phone with with frank frank take take earlier earlier Anita a need and and he he mentioned mentioned incredible incredible conversation conversation he he had had with with you you about about some some the the the the soft soft skills skills needed needed in and that that type type of of stuff stuff and and I'm I'm going Gonna to you know that at that that file file thing thing about about leaders leaders must must trust trust their our teams teams and and value value each each individual individual strengthened and push push decision decision making making I'd love Let me to get get your your take take on on how how do the we we need need to to focus focus on on building building up up the the whole whole product product manager manager not not just just the the the the tech tech technical technical acumen acumen of of of of a a process process and and approach approach yeah Yeah Harbaugh ha that's that's nice nice that that Frank frank tate tate remembered remembered our our conversation conversation that that was was months months ago ago I I actually actually interviewed interviewed him him was was doing doing some some market market research research for for a a course course I I was was building building for for pragmatic pragmatic it it hasn't hasn't launched launched yet yet but but you know in in the the same same it it was was is it's it's a a technical technical course course on on the the finances finances around around product product management management which which is is often often a a weakness weakness but but then then we we diverted diverted to to you you know know he he knows knows art art petty petty as as well well and and I I had had helped helped art art petty petty build build the the soft soft skills skills course course for for pragmatic pragmatic and and it's it's some it's it's it's it's often often ignored ignored right right soft soft skills skills don't don't they're they're they're they're not not easily easily grasp grasp The the grass grass by by people people and in they're there they're they're not not tangible tangible right right and and uM um
10:08 you you know know especially especially in in a a row row malt malt world world to to to to empower empower your your team team to to have have those those soft soft skills skills and and make make that that a a focus focus it it often often doesn't doesn't get get enough enough attention attention so Oh I Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Franken Frank and I I had had a a really really interesting interesting conversation conversation that that it's it's it's it's it's it's a a delicate delicate balance balance between between the the technical technical skills skills and and the the soft soft skills skills and and and and I I think think I I talk talked to to him him
10:30 it it may may have have been been right right at at the the beginning beginning of of the the Shutdown shutdown so So we didn't Don't really really grasp grasp The the totality totality of of what what it it means means to to be be a a product product manager manager in in A A in in a a virtual virtual setting setting right right and and I I personally personally think think that that it it becomes becomes more more important important I I eat eat I'll I'll try try to to interact interact with with your your customers customers your your market market and and your your team's teams in in a a rut remote Setting setting
10:50 for for example example influence influence and and power power uM uM how how is is that that different different virtual virtual world world it's it's much much more more challenging challenging he he elevates elevates the the teams teams are already already are are not not really really skilled skilled in in those those areas areas and and entered entered to to be be able able to to do do that that in in a a remote remote setting setting is is even even more more challenging challenging so so people people get get a a little little bit bit lost lost so so I I think think it'll giving giving priority priority to to those those skills skills would would would would help help us us a a great great deal deal and and I I think think going going forward forward if if we we as as product product managers managers and and as as product product leaders leaders can can help help our our teams teams In In a a remote remote world world you you know know in in any any world world really really become become better better influencers influencers and and have have more more clean clean power power as as art art calls calls it it and and and need need
11:29 it it helps helps us us to to become become more more strategic strategic and and two two who Ah Ah gain gain credibility credibility an and and to to really really drive drive things things a a lot lot better better north north of of her Great Doctor actor I'm I'm going going to to pivot Pivot dear you John John Peltier Peltier Here's How's your your answer answer was was about about giving giving up our the ability ability to to leverage leverage that that remote remote to to get get access access to to more more people people but how how do do you you view view that that that that that that chance chance for for us us to to get get more more engagements engagements going going to to help help are are we're we going going to to get get better better at at night night he he tell tell our our guys guys getting getting though though the the market market view view outside outside in in and and my my hope hope is is yes yes make make it it true you're not on on me me at at my my hope hope is is yes yes the the the the thought thought I I had had when when I I wrote wrote that that was was
12:10 I I think think those those two two things things one one yes yes the the the the ease ease of of access access is is important important but but you're you're right right we we have have to to learn learn Ah entry and train In product product managers managers to to to to ask ask the the right right questions questions and in and and find find the the right right the the right right data data and and the the right right insights insights
12:26 when when I I mentioned mentioned the the the the idea idea of of demonstrating demonstrating the the the the value value I I think think I i I I stopped strongly Library agree with with Steve Steve on on icy icy a a Lotta lotta folks folks that that that that where where product product is is leaning leaning very very far far and and attack attack and and not not into into business business market market market market sizing sizing I'm really really bad at running running their their own own business business I I think think that's that's An an ideal ideal and and I I told don't think the Guy I i don't don't see see a a lot lot of of folks folks meeting meeting it it so so I I think think there there is is an an opportunity opportunity with with with with market's market's changing changing today today but but I'm I'm not not convinced convinced were were as as a a as as A a function Function in in our are ready ready to to meet meet them that opportunity opportunity unless unless number number one one there's there's more more training training but but number number two two it's it's not not just just the the training training for for me me it's it's it's it's the the the Thursday stand and stiff stuff commented commented about about executives executives not not looking looking at product Product management management as is their our council Council on on growing growing our on growth and and if if product product management management isn't isn't
13:23 taking taking the the the ownership ownership of of explaining explaining their their own own value value no no one one else else is is Gonna Gonna do do it and That's that's where where I I feel feel like like we've we've got got we've we've got got some some room rumba to to to to work work some some work archival I've done I've I've always always said said that that that that marketing marketing and and product product management management are are the the worst worst marketers marketers of of themselves themselves
13:40 and and you're you're right right I I mean mean there there are are so so many many people people were with bravado Bravado who who say say oh oh I'm I'm number number one one and and we're we're like like oh oh Yeah Yeah we're we're all all number number one one you Yeah know but but we we never never really really say say here's here's what what I I here's here's what what I I contribute contribute and and if if in in particular particular if if we we don't don't have have a a seat seat at at the the table table I'm I'm I'm I'm actually actually so super Super Super place place at at the the number number of of camp camp products products a a number number of of companies companies now now that that have have a a C C P P O O with with product product management management reporting reporting into into a a sea sea level level which which means means at at least least where where the the table table I I mean mean it it used used to to be be you know now we'd we get get in into into tough tough times times and and somebody somebody would would say say who who don't don't we we need need and and they they turn turned to to the the VP VP of of development development say say who who don't don't you you need need and and he's he's like like well well I I need need all all my my developers developers right right so so my i shall so we we can need to to keep keep the the developers developers in in a a couple couple accused accused people people and and then then you you know know they they got got a a marketing marketing and and Mario's mario's OH oh I okay Gotta have have my my campaigns campaigns people people you you know know and and then then they they got got a a sales sales and and say say well well sales sales you you know know what what about about you you would would you you like like the the product product managers managers and and they're they're like like heck heck now now I've I've already already got got product product managers managers are are called called sales sales engineers engineers and and Nina you know that than it it is is debt debt financed finance says says well well it it seems seems like like nobody but he wants was the the product product manager manager of or less less just just delete delete the the back back group of of people people we've we've saved saved a a bunch bunch of of money money is Steve Steve have have you you heard heard the the story story about about Ford Ford and and I'll I'll get get back back to to you you grow isn't it was that that Greg greg was was by about the the company company I I was was Gonna Gonna I I was was going going to to add add onto onto that that one one might might my my experience experience is is whacked I out out just just do do a a quick quick ford forged story or there there's was a this story Already the abrupt brought efficiency efficiency consultant consultant then to point Point to to where where there's there's efficiency efficiency being being wasted wasted and any is say in in it it came came up up with with while while there's there's this this one one guy guy in in this this office office who who we we can't can't find find any any productivity productivity coming coming out out from from whatsoever whatsoever we we should should get get rid rid of of him heaven and ford ford said said no no he's he's my my son strategy edgy Guy guy he he tells told he he helps helped me me get IT perspective perspective and and see see everything everything I I need need to to do do and and make make my my plans plans long long term term and and it's it's understanding understanding that that that's that's a a roll roll of of product product management management Greg Greg I I love love you you to to cut cut to to comment comment on on steve's steve's but but else else like like you you have have a a product product development development background background as as well well as as product project management but i i'd Gotta love to get get your your perspective perspective from from that that lens lens well well I I have have the yeah assault song I've been been a a product product manager manager for for way way too too many many years years of suck son and and also also technologist technologist and and program program manager manager of the the whole whole nine nine yards yards all all of dick it and and I've I've seen seen all all the the ugliness ugliness and and Steve Steve exactly exactly what what you're you're saying saying is is that that what what I've I've observed observed many many many many many many times times is is that that the the business business guys guys just just go go talk talk to to the the technology technology Guys Guys and and the the technology technology Guys Guys just just go go off off and and then In the the same say Saying thing as is the that you you know know what what rob rob was was saying saying is is that that well well now now I I have have visibility visibility and and what what customer customer services services let's let's just just go go fix fix that that and and what what what what all all of of that that happens happens is is that that they they just just solve solve the the immediate immediate problem problem in in there there in brighton Brighton what what what's what's in in there their front of their their nose nose and and then then they they can't can't figure figure out out why why the the businesses businesses and and moving moving
16:24 and and we're we're spending spending so so much much money money but but we we can't can't figure figure out out why why the the businesses businesses and and moving moving forward forward and Because because we're we're just just not not figuring figuring out out what what the the value value of of anything anything is is in and one one of of those those rambles rat most puzzles powerful things things that that a a product product manager manager can can say say is is no no yeah yeah apps apps hand hand in in that that becomes becomes extremely extremely unpopular unpopular
16:43 on with with but but in I I will will quantify quantify that that you're you're Gonna Gonna say say no no but but here's here's the the criteria criteria of of why why I'm I'm saying saying no no and and I'm I'm saying saying now now so so that that we we can can say say yes yes to to that that big big opportunity opportunity here and and I I was was working working with with a a team team recently recently the the president president said said I I I I I I think think the the answer answer is is product product management management by but What's what's I'm I'm disturbed disturbed is is we we haven't haven't had had we we don't don't have have any any rep rep now now A a hundred hundred percent percent of of our our revenue revenue comes comes from from products products that that were were created created five five or or more more years years ago ago
17:15 I and and I I don't don't see see a a product product pipeline pipeline from from D development v Allotment and and I I said said okay okay well well there's there's your your problem problem right right developments developments already already over over tasked tasked just just keeping keeping up up with with the the products products you've you've built built
17:27 and and sales sales rarely rarely comes comes in in and and says says we when need a a new new product product what what they they do do is is they they come come in in and they they say say we winning need new new funk functions ends in in our our existing existing products products as as long long as as we we can can also also discounted discounted
17:38 any and you you know know an an answer answer he he was was like like steve steve Am Am I I am am I I crazy crazy here here is is isn't isn't it it product product management management that that I'm I'm looking looking for for and and I'm I'm said said Anna an ASs as like like absolutely absolutely I I mean mean you you really really want want as as frank ranked tate eight has has talked talked about about in in for for some some of of our our experiences experiences product Product management management filling filling this this queue queue of of new new product product offerings offerings products products and know software software services services that that are are just just standing standing by by waiting waiting for for us us to to commit commit to to them them as as opposed opposed to to you you know know being being support support for for development development or or being being the the best best sales sales engineer engineer they're the really really tactical tactical deployment deployment of of product product management management and and actually actually frank frank would would add add to to that that because because it he did did earlier earlier when I I thought talked there them was was product product management management about about the them that that is is about about the the bill bill by by partner Dinner for for that that so so it's it's about about identifying identifying the the opportunity opportunity market Market product product problem problem and and then then identifying identifying the the best best path path to to get get to to a a solution solution whether whether that's that's building building it it internally internally or or buying buying a a competitor competitor or or something something like like that that Jason Jason I'm I'm going going to to turn turn to to you you In In this this has has not not been been punishment punishment Jason Jason normally normally is is the the first first person person answer answer the the question question of of money money on on Monday Monday and and I I want want to to get get Jason Jason Jason Jason Jason Jason VS VS Jason Jason be be Jason Jason vs vs Jason Jason Know know what What's you're your take take when remove we've talked talked a a lot lot lot about about the that you've you bet of of of of vital vital voices voices we've we've had had this this conversation conversation before before where where you you from from your your seat seat what what are are you you looking looking at at
18:55 so so I I think think you you know know what's it's interesting interesting I I else was try to to those those count town trying trying to to find find an an article article that that will will serve serve me me from from A a forester Mister around around
19:06 you you don't know outcome outcome managers managers like like I I think think they're they're trying trying to to coin coin in in Smith Smith back back me me up up on on this this but but I I think think China China Bitcoin Bitcoin product product manager manager right Like management management and it it took took a a horse horse there's there's fashion fast in China China needed needed something something else else too to outcome Come management management or or outcome outcome managers managers or or something something like like bikes bikes which which to to me me is is like like everybody's everybody's an an alpha alpha manager manager of for official sufficient speaking what what are are you you talking talking about about stop Stop trying trying to to read be it the by bike the fighting industry industry to to give give yourself yourself a a little little bit bit more more reading reading on and viewing view it in a village huge so so sure sure that that out anything nothing of three three thousand value letters adders then then I I sweat sweat pain pain dead dead with with offering offering management management they they came came along along and and said said we we don't don't do do products products anymore anymore we we do do offerings offerings and him like like okay okay fine fine and and and and one one of of the the companies companies I I talked talked to to said said could could you you do do a a global global search search and and replace replace to to change change product product manager manager to a product product and and to to offering offering manager manager and and I'm I'm like like really really you you can't can't do do that that math math in in your your head Head I I mean mean come C'mon on Jason adjacent Jason Gretna Gretna IBM IBM was was one one of of our our band's banes first first in in big big cat cat a a banner banner clients clients on on that that transition transition and and I hit yeah Yeah that that was was fun fun
20:06 but but it it it it takes takes how how many many times times have have we we been been in in a a room room sources sources describe describe the subway somebody know know the the offering offering is is the the whole whole offering offering it's it's the the tangible Tangible product product it's it's the the services services around around it it it's it's everything everything and and into too often often I've I've had had to to describe describe people people I've like no no software software is is the the products products services services and and services services know know it it all all comes comes together together to to do do a a solution solution so so I I actually actually did did mine mind the the term term offering offering management management as as as as a a term term because because it's it's if if it it gets gets to to sort sort of of Jeffrey Jeffrey more More complete Complete solution solution are or hostile wholesome the whole whole product product a a lot lung cause cancer I offer offer that that isn't yep so Oh great great conversation conversation there there I I don't don't want let it i scare guess start that go go up up what but we we don't don't guess guess I I have have a a medium myriad it a bears bears coming coming back back to to you you than than it's some some bikers because because because offering offering management them did did leave leave a a big big gap gap Ah on it it focus focused the the entire entire organization organization on on the the whole whole picture picture and and executing executing on on the the whole whole picture picture and and it it left left the the tactical tactical execution execution steps steps at at the the product product development development level level unread right underrepresented under represented know know it there was was an an important important aspect aspect of of it it not not good good to to know now that's That's good good contact contact from from somebody somebody who's who's actually actually implemented implemented it it yet and i've i've talked talked to to mark mark Brenda Brenda about about it it I I like like some some of of the the stuff stuff that that they've they've done done I I think think on on a a strategic strategic side side it it makes makes a a lotta lotta sense sense in in the the end end maybe Maybe this this is is something something that that I i don't don't think Think I I got got the the question question here here but but like like where where strategy strategy and and product product fit fit together together I I look look at at you know a frank frank tate day or or some some other other time time sometimes sometimes you you see see the the chief chief product product officer officer is is the the chief chief strategy strategy Officer officer I'm I'm going going to to save save that that one one for for another another day day
21:33 We We did did a a poll poll about about where where do do we we think think the the biggest biggest impact impact is is going going to to be be on on product product management management more more virtual virtual team team collaboration collaboration disruption disruption in in my my market market more more virtual virtual market market engagement engagement or or something something I'll I'll share share in in the the comments comments and and we we got got a a couple couple in in their there you know the The thing thing that's that surprised Crosby me is is that that we we I I thought thought we we would would see see more more answers answers around around more more virtual virtual market market engagement engagement because because we we talked talked about about in in the the front front about about being being easier easier I I didn't didn't expect expect disruption disruption in in my my market market to to be be the the place place I I voted voted for for it it but but I I didn't didn't expect expect that that to to be be the the place place Greg Gonna I'm going to turn turned to to you you I I don't don't know know if if you've you've heard heard this this I'd I'd love love to to get get your your thoughts thoughts on on where where do you you think think the the biggest biggest impact impact is is going going to to be be for for disruption disruption in in the the changing changing of of of of of of the the market market listings always think then that come the the sea the areas areas of of of of defining defining what what product product management management and end is is in in a a virtual virtual world world and and you you know know having having that that proof proof positive positive that that the the product product is is key key to to going going forward forward is Is Is is really really Gonna Gonna be be the the biggest biggest disruption disruption because because you're you're not not going gonna to be be necessarily necessarily having having those those hallway hallway conversations conversations all all the the time time you're you're not not gonna gonna be be you know a hand hand holding holding your your product product owners owners and In your your development development teams teams on on what What is is the the value value you're you're trying trying to to move move forward forward the the wise wise and and the the watts watts and and the measures measures of of success success those those are are going going to to be be more more more more difficult difficult an an ASs ass as ass you know We we figure figure out out how how We're we're Gonna Gonna be be coming coming back back together together it's it's Gonna Gonna be be a a it's it's gonna Gonna be be a a big big challenge challenge it's it's Gonna Gonna be be very very very very big big challenge challenge and and it it now now becomes becomes much much less is a a much much more more of by I'll call call it it a a threat threat to to product product management management to to circumvent circumvent all all attempts attempts at at at at that's That's interesting interesting and and rather rather I would would go go back back to to the the comment comment about about the the technology technology about about the you you know know I'd I this this the the first first time time driving you talk talk about about the the casual casual conversations conversations that that happen happen around around the the water water cooler cooler when when you're you're on on the the office opposite and that that type type of of stuff stuff you you mentioned mentioned rob rob the the technology technology that's that's being being you you guys guys are are using using to to get gets things things from from customer customer support support to to product product management man's overalls we're also Oh Yeah we're we're also also being being disrupted disruptive by technology technology as as well well so so where where you know the the division division live live in in a highly highly public public lands lands right or lose in his thumb investor Better communication communication solutions solutions which which is is a a print print business business and and Yeah Yeah we've we've seems seen S slight slight pages pages he he has has we we start start to to go go digital digital but but you you know know you you look look at at virtual virtual shareholder shareholder meeting meeting which which took took us Us ten ten years years to to get get the the three three hundred hundred meetings meetings in In one one year year and in in six six months months we we get get two two thousand thousand meetings meetings this this acceleration acceleration into into digital digital and and the the meetings meetings ever have a go go a a lot lot now now with with railroads regulatory Everybody's bodies Emily and the way customers customers customers customers are are looking looking at at things things and and when when you you look look at at palm you you know companies companies like like a a broad broad ridge ridge where where where where where where we we have have to to make make a a decision decision how how do do we we quickly quickly you you know know in in accelerate accelerate all all of of our our development development you you start start looking looking at at ways ways that that we we can can do do things things at with a a cloud cloud I'm I'm so so we we have have a a cloud cloud transformation transformation going going on on it's it's changed changed the the nature nature of of what what now now product product manager manager that's that's come come in in and and is is working working in in retail retail maintaining maintaining a a COBOL COBOL systems systems that the whole all of of a a sudden sudden is is looking looking at at a eight WS U S not it's it's a it's a it's a a real real difference difference in in mindset mindset of of an an in end something something that that Steve Steve said said struck struck me me witches witches you you know know I I never never really really thought thought about about it it and and took took to to the the extent extent that that that about I've I I've thought thought about about it um have have you you are already indeed filling filling up up the the Pipeline Pipeline verses verses being being very very good good at at accurately accurately identifying identifying acquisition acquisition candidates candidates and and letting letting somebody somebody else else do do the the Oregon and D D for for us us and and then then we we and and AM I'm going going after after buying buying company company and Banning adding it it in integrating integrating it it and and product product management management has as an an integration integration identification identification and and integration integration a a body body verses verses having having to to continue continue called co continually continually come come up up with with new new stuff stuff about about the the plugs plugs these these block block but but also also go go back back and and then then become become a a product chronic lyme line you know OH ability they they to help help with of the the product product strategy strategy as as well well so so I I see see that that I I see see that that right right now now has is one one of of our our biggest biggest threats threats in in one one of of the the things things and and I I don't don't think think I I think think it's it's a a different different type type of of mindset mindset gonna can it be be any any different different type type of of product product management management
25:32 it You you know know associate Associate that that we we will will have have as as we we start start as as we we started started this these trend trends continue continue I I don't don't see see them them stopping stopping my my tickets tickets you you have have pretty pretty much much walked walked invaders invaders but but I I figured figured you you to to expand expand upon upon that that is is more more and more more companies companies are are figuring figuring out out how how to to do do you you know know cloud Loud things things like like that that you you find find that that it it tends tends to to be be more more of of a a technological technological transformation transformation that that the the technology technology guys guys just just run run off off in in the the product product people people tend tend to to just just be be sidelined sidelined on on that that entire entire initiative initiative there is little literally How how I I Wish Wish how how I I wish wish that that was was true true Greg greg but now Noah I I See see I I see see that that happening happening with with people people just just lifting lifting and and shifting shifting thinking thinking they they can can just just take take the the existing existing product product the the existing existing user user experience experience and and just just put put it it onto onto a a new new server Server basin Basin in an in input put it in in the the cloud cloud and and but John John Paul Paul two you was would think a great Great Google cover her her up up with with Ubuntu ubuntu go go back back to to sucking sucking earlier earlier Greg growing up we we went went through through we we went went through through glass glass we we use use BC BC Geez Geez Roland Romantic a process Process and and we've you gone gone through through a wee we bit could terrified terrified are now now six six book book is is going going to to be be seven seven roll roll mandates mandates and we we took took an an organization organization in in my my World World I I was was about about a a hundred hundred and and twenty twenty one one people people that that we we had had put It was was at a a identified terabyte is public product product managers managers about about three three hundred hundred and fifty fifty people people on on the the other other side side of of the the house house says says about about five five hundred people people organization organization and and what what we we thousand found through went and through through this this we we now now we we have have now now both both product product managers managers who who we we with with people people who who were were assigned signed or or were were scored scored as as a a product product manager manager because because they they don't don't do do the the role role anymore anymore while while they'll they'll do do it it the the way way we we identified identified it We with moved moved them them either either into into Techno Techno product product manager manager or or into into a a business business a a product product analyst analyst slash slash product product owner owner role role and and and and and and that that it's it's been been helping helping US US greatly greatly in in how how we we handle handle transformation transformation because because as as we we started start to to look look at at more more these these platform platform trends transformations Formations we we can can output output a a technical technical product product manager manager to to handle handle that that piece piece of get it the the interface interface with with them the cat at organization more innovation and and pull pull from from the the subject subject matter matter expertise expertise on on from from our our product product organization organization has has been been one one of of the the biggest biggest biggest biggest shift ships I I mean mean we we were were starting starting this this pre Pre convict convict and and it's it's been been one one of of the the biggest biggest impacts impacts that that we we've seen seen to to the the overall overall organization organization throughout throughout the the company company by I doing don't it at rather rubber match not going going to to use use that that as as a a payment pivot to the the next next question question because because what what you're you're talking talking about about there there is is role role clarity clarity right right and and part part of of the the problem problem with with that that I I see see out out there there Is is this This it and and how how pragmatic pragmatic marking marking talked talked about about it it from from day day one one right right the the clarity clarity of of roles roles what what is is product product management management and who who is is what what is is proper proper management management do do there's there's sort sort of of a a philosophical philosophic some some philosophical philosophical divide divide of of the the Tech heck design design VC VC type Type world world versus versus the the business business leader leader type type world world as as we we look look at at the the ongoing ongoing role role of of product product management management rob rob I'm I'm Gonna Gonna ask ask you you to how how did did you you Guys Guys define define that that role role as as you you sort sort of of decided Sorry that this this is is what what the the role role of of private private Medvedev Edward isn't these is the roles Rosetta that aren't art product product management management move move them them away away why why I I can can speak speak for for for for for for what what we've we've seen seen we we were were a a number number of of very very um um yeah yeah technology technology focused August's society two what what everybody everybody said said you you know know we we checked checked out out at first Password word normal I i got got to to Broadway progress to with our our technology technology focused focused organization organization and and we've we've gone gone through through this this evolution evolution now now we are are at the the writing writing role romain mandates mandates me me realize realize that that there's there's a a frightening fragile peace used to illicit this the the discovery discovery and and innovation innovation piece piece that that we we now now we we realize realize it's it's simple important but that we we don't don't have have is the the skillset skillset Yeah Yeah we we pulled pulled from from our our customer customer service service and and technical technical organizational organizational required required these these people people through through acquisitions acquisitions and and they're they're very very tactically technically focused focused and and so so that's that's one one thing thing you you know know we we would would ever ever know Oh we we we we were were very very much much focused focused on on the the bill bill writing writing requirements requirements in and a a managing managing the the build build process process you you know know and and it'll ill thankfully thankfully we we have have a a good good marketing marketing sales sales on on but weed We don't out the go Gotta to market market peace peace I I would would say say we we need need to to build build up up any me and The the freedom freedom peace peace we we also also thought thought we we did did a a survey survey when when I I first first started started I I were were I I did didn't a survey survey the the entire entire organization organization we we found found that that everybody everybody has had goals goals for for it you know over if if you you look look at at commercialization commercialization strategy strategy and and in in the the end end development development everybody Everybody had had goals goals to to be be somewhat somewhat spread spread apart apart they they want want to work work amber Amber in in the the middle middle where where are are you you what what are are you you wanting wanted to have have the the luxury luxury of of doing doing strategy strategy worked work you no know we we actually actually asked asked what what they're they're actually actually working working longer on than that we we did did an an analysis analysis of of what what their their embryos embryos look look like like nobody nobody did did any anything strategy did you works work so for everything everything was was either either project project management management supporting supporting the the technical technical organization organization but but no no strategy strategy work work was was being being done done and and and that's that's why why as it it had before before that's that's why why acquisitions acquisitions have have become become such such an an important important part part of of what what we we do do because because a if given you're not going going out out and and building building the the pipeline Pipeline it's it's really really really really easy easy to to go go out out and and find find a a company company that's that's done done that that well well that's that's young young growing rowing has has technology technology that that can can be be integrated integrated has has a a growing growing customer customer base base that that we we Gonna Gonna add have to to because because with with the the leader leader in in in in the the space space and and just just pretend pretend just just part Carlo Yeah Yeah I expect I'll it got it sorry Sorry Rob rob if if I I could could ask ask it it with with all all those those changes changes and and structural structural and and the the technological technological how how much much room in in addition addition to to acquisitions acquisitions how how much much was was invested invested in in upskilling upskilling internally internally and and how how do do you you think think that's that's changing changing in in the the new new environment environment I I know know that that dumb dumb organizations organizations tend tend to to in in times times of of crisis crisis or or you you know know challenge challenge to to kind kind of of cut Cut those those budgets budgets you you know know upskilling upskilling and and training training right right and and earth earth are or we injures just movement move investment Batsmen of three three million million dollars dollars to to do do that that on on the the upscale upscale so so once once you you got wrote the the role role mandates mandates we we didn't didn't go got the the survey survey Everybody's everybody's been been only on been been assigned assigned to to a a eight eight and and leveled leveled into into a a romantic romantic and and our our building building out out the the the The training training Plan plan and EM um we we just just got got in in in investment investment from from love above ratty actually from from Aussie Aussie Yeah Yeah we we had had a a CEO CEO change change eg and and and who we we went went so so we we went went to to a a very very product product focused focused company company and and we we just just got got divestment divestment to to go go out out and and start start looking Looking out out across across crossing the organization organization at that upscale upscale do do you you think think that's that's typical typical er er you you think think that's that's that's that's unique unique you you know know what what I've I've been been doing doing this this for for thirty thirty five five years years I've I've never never seen seen anything anything what but I've I've been been through through every every type kind of of transformation transformation and and chroniclers chroniclers by by the the government government known known to to man man and and I I don't don't think Think I've I've never never seen seen anything anything like like that it it Yeah that's that's that's that's of of anybody anybody else else has has bought but it you know off I I work work for for companies companies I've I worked worked in in new new products products for for companies companies that that have have hated hated new new products products
31:44 at exo slow the the the an an organization organization at at the the time time in employee product Acknowledgement management at of the a time time when when companies companies actually actually the the C C E E O's O's actually actually saying saying it's it's the the most most important important pillar pillar of of growth growth on I I don't don't know know what what to to do do with myself myself that's at fantastic passed a
31:58 expression Jason Jason Brett Brett I'd I'd love love to to get get your your take take you you know know the the BC BC Jean You Road Rob mandate Mandate type types Stuff of you you know know the the offering offering management management stuff Stuff you you Guys guys were were doing doing it it jus do it It was was their their stuff stuff there there that that seems seems different different you you talk talk about about that that stuff stuff that was was missed missed in in the the middle middle Ah Ah Yeah Yeah so it it was was the the role role itself it off AH as as implemented implemented where where we we were were was was very very focused focused on on really really kind of of the The things things that that we we think think about about five five years years ago ago seven seven years years ago ago some some time time ago ago we we used used to to try try to to really really make make the the distance distance the the distinction distinction between between a a strategic shooting Jack product product manager manager and in a a technical technical product product manager manager and and people he would define define themselves themselves and and their their resume resume is is that that a a in in those those kind kind of of different different veins bands and and what what it it really really counted of did did is is I I think think it it took took the the the the general general manager manager concept concept that that you're You're more more strategically strategically mine mine did did Product product managers managers focused focused on on and and said said okay okay this this is is what what offering offering management management is is and and it's it's it's it's this this higher higher minded minded knowledge knowledge worker worker Ah Ah Ah UM strategic Strategic role role that's that's responsible responsible for for really really bringing Bringing driving driving the the revenue revenue and and the the value value proposition proposition of of the the products products that that we're we're developing developing the the result result of of that that was was in in IBM IBM case case they they literally literally said said that that the the staple staple was was quote quote if if you're you're in in product product management management today today and and offering offering management management is is not not something something that's that's attractive attractive to to you you you you should should probably probably start start looking looking for for another another job job while while and and what what that that led led to to the and end that that literally literally came came from from one one of of my my executives executives um what what that am and what what that that resulted resulted in in was was engineering engineering coming coming back back to to the the forefront forefront of of making making all all of of of of owning owning the the backlog backlog owning owning the the development development decisions decisions an and offering Offering managers managers being being relegated relegated to to the the position position I'm I'm okay okay we we built built it it you go go commercialize commercialize it it
33:51 interesting interesting
33:54 I'm Gonna move us to the next question and Jason Leigh I'm going to come do with this how do you think the evolution of the role is going to change requirements and expectations for the job
34:04 both good question and I'm going to ask everybody else because UM maybe this ties into this but I wanna bring a saw the knife like a minute debate just gonna change
34:14 your answer another question OH and so is interesting as we have gone camping in a very digital in a in a collaboration for product managers were always kind of predicated it it would be better to be closer to the market Elsa to your sales team's goes to your marketing teams or if your product owner possibly closer to development teams now we've gone more digital we're learning how to collaborate in a very remote kind of way and possibly actually gained some success there We feel about our product management staff is there a risk that they can get ah you know poached for other product manager position somewhere else on the good talent you know can go somewhere else because now the world has opened up Them outside of their location you know and I think that that might be something we need to think about and twenty twenty one now that local requirements from a recruiting perspective are kind of out the window I obviously that is Alex Sorry What'd you sing and software engineering already I mind my nephew is a software engineer for big government contractor in without asking he was given a twenty five thousand dollar raise in the Minneapolis Saint Paul area because they know that companies are looking for good engineers now virtual wherever they are they headed up what they were paying to make sure they can compete on a national stage to the panel anybody out there what do you think that Gonna happen with product management
35:44 Well I I just took a remote role but I certainly didn't did not get a twenty five thousand dollars
35:50 I will say you're not a software engineer is true
35:53 now but does it does it change expectations of the job
35:59 I think if if as a function were able to
36:05 to reach the level of strategic impact want it will change it will require more business Gilmore finance for exam
36:14 A but you a day the question is are we are we actually Gonna get it there or does product marketing continue to to drive the strategy and leaf product management working with them
36:26 at acquired by Gonna goes down a role clarity as well what is it with our title clarity shall be Anita love to get your take your working some of the financial aspects of it some of the soft aspects of it how does it how do you think it evolves
36:41 I think has been evolving already before before this year even happened right but I think the pressure is on I think I think that we need to work harder as product leaders to get that visibility right and like like steve said to advocate for ourselves and really get that seat at the table and I do think that the expectations up you know I have a lot of Experience in the project management side as well and I've seen over the decades that the expectations for the business side the financial side the numbers the hard skills you don't and saw soft skills has increased significantly as I do think that uM you know this year aside in a one way to get really good visibility is to to build those hard skills as well and I think mostly organizations I've worked with don't really expect the the whatever the role is defined as the product managers to have those financial skills and I think that that's an area where we can really dr our value right is whether or not your organization expects out of you to build those skills in on maybe I'm pitching our course here but I I've I've I saw that one of the reasons I built the course and an and pitched it to print Pragmatic is because that is something that held me back in my career right is in I have an MBA and everything and I have an advantage over a lot of my peers who don't come from a business background yet even if you have an MBA that role is just often not expire but to have the hard skills the financial skills um I think I think those are areas that you know we can we can push that evolution and and become better product leaders in that way editor at all not so much as the leaders but to help our teams get there right where inexpensive we talk about moving stuff for the front and part of it's strategic side of a part of building the business case I was right my first job out of grad school was a G I was taught how to size markets from the ground up I was taught by FBI eight people how to build a pro forma right you're Lucky you're Lucky Yeah we have a skill set that I had that big help me succeed where I was and I'm not actually we're Gonna do this sort of debate style I want every single person you got sixty two two hundred twenty seconds to answer this one question and we're gonna start right to left on my screens or rob Goldberg is Gonna go first I want your you know what your gut take on the biggest opportunity for private men who make a material impact on company performance moving forward
39:18 Oh well
39:25 I would say
39:28 I would have to say it's the integration of technology Ah you know across the table to create productivity um within the um Within the processes that we do
39:42 and it just closing the Gaps I think in in the in the steps up the tab that we do that what it takes it is so sad integration across all the stats between development impact and the product world okay right front and you're next up in my right box okay so I think that one of the two big material impacts and are Gonna cut T up on what Anita said a little bit is that the What product management needs to do is be very clear on what the goals are explicitly what the measures success for anything that are Gonna try and do so that that Communication is very clear across their partners in the organization and also down and that empowers all the teams to actually move in there in that direction and have those debates upon What are the goals and what's the market we're trying to go after that part is Gonna make the biggest impact on the business as well as how the teams are all lined up regardless of where they are in the world
40:45 I got that one Jason brett You're next in Queue
40:50 the O Ultimately I don't think that going forward is an east different from what's in the rearview mirror in terms of where product management has the biggest offer ready to have a material impact and that is continuing to be the soul of the company and ensure discipline and making sure that we're solving the right problems for the customers and our cubbies addressing
41:16 The crime where we're choosing the right proms to go saw and validating the solutions effectively I don't i don't think that changes the outcome with you Jason Lee
41:31 In popular the Base I will never disagree with everybody
41:38 I had to give it is beyond that you just can't say I disagree really
41:44 seems odd Yeah the Blue Jays and I think this whole whole lot of change I think there is lot more opportunity in it a lot more need to make it more visible what were contributing to the organizations has brought managers to make sure that we really nailed down What our market is supposed to be what it is what is agreed upon and connect those two the products out where are delivering and contains make sure that we are building the most important things for our market
42:14 you don't because resources are tight end stairs and we have to just continue I don't think there has been any change sir specifically because of the situation or an
42:24 awesome job healthy I am thinking I Am I should it be alphabetical flow here I think that a I would agree fundamentally there's not a dramatic change but I will say I'll offer up that I think there's a number of companies where or which do not have it where the product teams do not have access to or command of all the data that they need and should be using to build business cases to to build support for their their road map Sir It Is So I look at the this or a growing field of product operations is a big opportunity where where where you can put in the process and the data availability and access to enable product managers who are already extremely overworked to to make better decisions just by giving them real time access the data that normally they have to chase down and would often find excuses not to go find in some cases setting that's an opportunity to to enable product management to to be better stewards of the company's resources and decisionmaking Awesome Anita
43:40 you all took my answer is
43:43 I agree with every one of course and I'll I'll just add that dumb you know addition to that the hard skills that we talked about already on their soft skills skills side I really do think that this is you know this year has been little bit scary and a lot of people lost jobs and in organizations where we haven't been valued those people lost jobs and I know now that were you not Finding some ground to stand on again I did I really do see this as an opportunity to prove our value and I think that chum we can't be shy about that right I think that we have to be here on a virtual world advocating more for ourselves and our teams and and really in our reaching out and take the initiative to figure out ways to there there are new problems that are scaring people and were the ones who are accustomed to that right we know change we know some scary stuff we know seeing around corners and I think we can help earn organizations become more comfortable with that so I think it's a really big opportunity for us to A really elaborate are soft skills to to prom promoter teams and get that visibility
44:51 great in our first effect each of you for not having that have me say your time's up and heavy talking I do appreciate that I'm going to come in and actually I almost jokingly change my name is Jason Hunter because Jason and Jason went back to back with going that way I recently wrote a blog series a two part called the product leadership imperative end for me what I my focus was was the concept of ah management is doing things the right way leadership is doing the right things And I I see the biggest impact we can have is in I think both Jason's have said it in any event John I'm always Gonna it's making sure that the organization is purported up putting our resources on the right opportunities and whether in a product lifecycle management understanding where you are in your maturity and do invade invest in growth through new features like get you to new market segment or is it time for you to start that second growth curve or next growth curve and go into a new market are new in or bring a new product to market and having the ability to leave as from a business aspect leverage that business acumen and in those types of things
46:03 I would have everybody music guys in a generic way I do too I have to break that habit I call my kids guides and
46:12 Mike my Daughter tells me need to be better with my pronouns and how I use my pronouns are
46:19 I want to thank everybody for your time this afternoon
46:24 Some great new voices on the call Jason Brett Rob Goldberg Greg Fenton the need to thank you guys so much for being part of this steve actually had to go he had a call with a client
46:35 but I hope we can keep you coming back to being part of this conversation We enjoy it I I'm I'm you know Selfishly I enjoy having better more more voices on there to have the Cop conversation Joseph it's outlay and I know i just butchered that principle it and jump out Yeah you know to longtime people grabbed at glad to have you guys back we're going to be try to do this every week in the community next week's going to be a new topic will have the open ended question we're Gonna have the pole and have this call and you are the more people we can have participated the more good voices we have the more different lenses we can bring into it the better the conversation can be so everybody thank you so much and i'll tell you have a wonderful weekend if If Whether is that is good where you are as it is here to be beautiful so thank you guys so much emigrating aunts grandmothers really hear about it the current makes everyone look like it but