Product Management as Business Leaders

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TOTW - Product Management as Business Leader
0:00 our topic this week it's product management has business leader so we got a great panel the name John Harmer Rob Goldberg Jason but select and Steve Johnson Ah for our conversation today we were where we start every week is looking through some of our answers from the open ended question Ah Jason you're still getting beat to the punch for the first answer this week this it doesn't help that we've got somebody in Switzerland doing it because she's probably up an already going before that but I Wanna go straight to your one in the middle because I a it was a different perspective than everybody Else I when I talked about it Jason's answer was product management also needs to understand the user persona of their own OH internal business what are the goals are salespeople pre sales implementation market finds legal fees related to the entire business thinking these are related the tire business seeking would escalate a product manager to a business later
0:57 but everybody else you'd be taken that outward in a market focused view you gave me something to think about without won't talk to me about where your head was
1:11 In probably a vat of coffee at a time
1:15 but as thou seriously it all where as ousting my my career at what propelled me my career from being basically like a technical prod jack manager into product management and eventually as a VP of product and marketing and things that nature was not necessarily by obedience to the road map a making sure that we're doing the right things solve right Problems which could be subjective to whoever is looking at the deals right so what propelled me is understanding how every one of the departments think about the products about what their challenges are in so that I can make those connections I'm sometimes on behalf of these groups connecting legal to marketing connecting pre sales to implementation you know you tend to be very been a product manager you have to be very central to the organization because everything kind of works in and out of that product and so including the finance beasts and Zaza thinking you know bats account held me my career was think about all areas of the business work around the products which is armies lose it's a painting of himself right in the accidents at it from a business leadership standpoint that's how you know it's a convert i I it it actually gave me a new lands I had thought about it I often come from this tragic market in that but to be successful in the business those are all key persona to think about as well John I'm going to fight our new panel is John Harmer in on this point because your current position is important product management for gmail and it's not like it's a typical you've got other dishes before where you were only peanuts no such a thing it's it inside a place like google how does this you know all the internal users how does that impact the way you look at the business leadership product it's it's actually really different it's kind of weird
3:12 and not a bad way necessarily so it at Google we don't talk we haven't historically Least in my experience talked about what is the profitability or the revenue associated with Google workspace the artist formerly known as G sweet
3:27 know it it makes money there there's some number where did you see myself thinking it is useless This week
3:35 we had a rembrandt
3:38 a yes or like the kinds of things so google is big on okay hours into the kinds of things that we end up focusing on are more around
3:46 like Utilization of features we even get it's insofar as to to focus on things like how much time we're saving our users as the big focus for this this workspace thing is integrating all the things together you'd Opt to go from app to app to app to happiness get the thing done and move on with your life and so it's this like relentless focus on the user and ah nodded disdain for the revenue but like not it's not a core thing your fear driving towards
4:14 which made gmail be like a two two and a half whatever it is billion monthly active user product right
4:23 I think we had the luxury of doing that because there's this Ad machine yeah paying the bills it's actually fighting Yeah most people don't have that kind of a luxury you have to focus on those business outcomes more specifically we get to focus on the user comes little bit more
4:40 and so it's like the way that we end up spinning and it took to their specific questions The dentistry business leadership is in a row I mean I work a lot of third parties and partners who return integrate into gmail and it's finding the right set of those partners to work with and the waste and get them onboard our platform to make are sort of shared user base more successful because in theory that makes
5:05 those users stickier to both of our products and happier long term
5:11 perspective I I sometimes talk down to sort of the Unicorn VC type product marriage because it's so tech design centric not user centric up but I love the way you shared that there because it in a way it's almost mosaic almost drucker and me saying it's always gone back to the consumers I've gone back to the user the customer to understand the needs and realizing it you can add that that there's Gonna be a monetization it somehow so right
5:41 I would love to get into it a going down a rabbit hole on whole product for Google I met Gmail or Google workplace the whole set up for a different cop ah they classic so good run rhythm when you read that's the third or you know what immediately came to my life it is kind of interesting in something often overlooked
6:02 in product managers in the public managers always been a moron try to influence stakeholders across the organization What I've noticed in maybe it's just cause we're we're folk were so hyper focused on it now but that that systems thinking approach to product management where you know it's up there's a system going audio in in our business because so highly regulated you can you know you really can't do anything unless you can influence others and get the buyer lama talking about technology it's compliance and legal end at you know the sales organization you to get by and across the entire system to be able to successfully bring something to market and the product by ear while these are either them the money the matrix organizations the product manager has to work in one of the skills are we The overlooking goes back to that source copies do is their ability to influence and Persuade em so that everybody's coming together it's so easy to say well aren't we all come together for the better good of the company the shareholders Employees and Emmy we see them at the opportunity by being a fighting at everybody else is priorities in any given day an erotic to bring people together for the betterment of a movie a product out into the market and going after an opportunity is is about one in three seem to work together to make for Me I was actually just about togetherness thing why three envy you know I think Jason's was more about war it explicit about who You're Gonna be worrying about where thousand meters of response the first one which is more about talking about that you know how you're Gonna do it so I I get that now the second one there The second bullet Steven I believe was yours I try and work back to business outcomes we don't go features just about features we build an increase customer acquisition retention rules
8:01 well now I feel less good about that after hearing John talk about gmail but it you know I actually as John was talking about that I went back to a book I read a long time ago that said customers come second employees come first and you know if you take care of your employees they'll be so shocked by it that they will take good care of your customers and they will be so shocked by their will buy and use your product and I'm like there's a lot to be said for that view now in the example i I think he used in the book was every single person it working in the Atlanta Airport hates you and their job and their boss I've not ever met anyone in that airport who is like I am so Glad to be here isn't or an employee's it with the Atlantis the worst ever USA or you know like European neighbors at airports and you know You're just like in a win the supervisor get snarky with the employee in the ploy get snarky with A customer and you're like well shoot i guess I won't be coming back here again vienna
9:08 in the air with an a different thought on on the on the third point there I had this experience I was new in a role and I sat down with have team and I said you know I actually want to do well here I mean how can I contribute to the team and they say well before you start talking about requirements and stories and persona this and all the detail tell us what's going on with the business you know and so and I was talking about these are the marking programs were running these are the revenue expectations we have this is the mission you know here's my my product cantons this you know which I had in those days of you know here's what makes this thing unique here's what we're doing and why we're doing it and they were like super that provider all this context that we needed and what was interesting was a few days later I got a call from somebody and support and he said dumb hey I was just talking to one of our developers and he says you have this beautiful business strategy presentation can you come give it to the support and I'm like I'm not even sure what this Guy's talking about I guess it must been the conversation out I a development right so I I come in with my seventh lies which are now twelve slides I presented the air and then I got a call from the head of finance he's like Hey I hear you're shopping around this great presentation about our business strategy can you can give it to my team and and I was like why you're in finance you couldn't care less where you work you know you just move money from here to there and he's like you know guess wide We actually care about the mission of this company and before you know it I'm going all around the company telling the product story and they'd never heard it you know they the the president was talking about company think but nobody but me was talking about this is our premier product and this is what we're doing with it this is why we named it this and this is why we change that thing over there and I think I enter L I saw you know this discussion I was like you know how much Evangelism do we do inside the building at now a lot of us do it outside the building but getting the whole team on board seems to be a key element of demonstrating business leadership steve and I just you just made me go back and realize what I used to do twenty two years ago at a company for my notice bomb was the wrong approach I was the director competitive market intelligence and I was the person at employee orientation was the group doing the overview of the market and competition and I didn't overview of the market and competition not the value we deliver our product our and like oh shoot but that company went away so it's my fault I guess image of the answers testing do I think what's interesting is your audience did pioneering those groups like a superbowl bullet three may need a little bit of a spent what it means for them wise important to them first I agree everybody really wants to know
12:04 I spent right after we had a legal authority your team just one person but she was our legal team was in place for almost a year she asked me to go with a product he's like you did steve and I thought it was amazing machine have already noticed us she was writing contract No man should use my presentation and it took notes and always will notice you issues continuously time and time again as she was writing reviewing contracts so it you just never know what people need to know what they want to know it and just take for granted that they does know else about but indeed and if you go back to Simon Sonic like I think everybody wants to know why we do the things that we town
12:45 so regular Messiah and you have to do that Evangelism thing at at at Google for example to get the teams to want to build the things that you think need to get built like it's it's it's fascinating that same using the same what is it but never one soft skills around understanding near user and their problems after the same thing with my development team or with the Pre sales or marketing and finance teams like the present them a story evangelize the vision in a way that resonates such a trade off between all this and you trading off either sometimes you train love pillow some of the functionality of what you wanted you to get them were going through a little different about going through this data transformation project right now we try to Move all about we built product taxonomies they were trying to map all the revenue sales expenses of development costs to those taxonomies put into a data warehouse and push it out through Ah here it through the data to It can be I told him you think this would be the easiest thing in the world for everybody to get their head around more data standardized way of looking at it and were having a fight if you can believe us over what the I talk to use you know so it's like his old as much as I bought the push or global Olympics I have been continually say now know from from what you know again I look at it as just another product that were building but I have to say we're going to be data agnostic will give you the pipes and Isabel hour A team will give you the pipes were all the data and we had a big tremendous tradeoffs in terms of what we're Gonna deliver to the end customer because of the territorial wars in the fight me in fighting that's going on and in other debts debts I guess it's just the nature of In this position is sometimes when you get to the final years are empty P edited it out you're making trade offs him in those things are on the roadmap and we've had a pretty robust roadmap are now being looked at saying hold it We're Gonna have to give up here so that we can get the win there which is getting broad user acceptance and use of the tool versus us being the doping rolling out our product that we want
14:53 again the has helped me change my view of the fourth forethought point was my this is by all right things right right let's leadership is doing management is doing things right leadership is doing the right things and that's been a lot of my focus am my riding around strategic side on Market focused approach to make sure your name a new organization to do the right things and I go back to the question pass demonstrate business leadership and I come back to you know A third point first point really the way you demonstrate does not make sure to focus on the rest of it's major you can enable that Mitzvah the enable part is engaging with them across the organization to do that the first one is just doing your job
15:37 you know being market focused coming up with real problems to solve ah the sackett one the enabling it saw skills the understanding habitats were a leadership any the organization the soft the lower our leadership eyes at me and when I talked to the Navy I talk about right Yeah how do you get people who don't report to you to do what's right into the right stuff i saw it
16:01 in obvious answer is you try to convert them from mercenaries to missionaries
16:08 add is a fantastic race without lying but I love it nonetheless there there's steve and I were talking earlier today I've been reading slash listening to the infinite game by Simon said It In not bring back to him and he actually in that book talks about employees before customers because of that whole chain of and I still have been debating in my head because the drucker and me is is you know it's always starts with the cosmic us with where we have a business or maybe they're getting Yankee hats for both them in a great AH but you know he's he talks about he actually is now positioning get the y is in the past you're just cause is where you're going to Ah and
16:56 get a party thinks he just grease spitting it for a new book the same concept it up but part of me likes the idea of it because that's how you get a missionary If people are serving for a just cause and police people believe in touch with bring David pyramids got into it with a whole concept all the sudden the whole fan dumb type stuff the whole fanatics is not about just your customers but as a business leader how do you get your organization to to be behind that of Robert socket and my son today my Robin I had a great conversation last week about musicians his son is it my former player what the Conservatory and Johns Hopkins My Son is a trombone player and he wants to be drum major next year and unlike he's got some competition like now you need to start just going out there John you're a great players not Gonna git you have to become a leader in the band right again at lower leadership how you get people to move and move them get them to that jazz clubs get them being missionaries with even
17:57 got out actually I think every week I say I'm Gonna change my answer because everybody else is asked to help me think through everything so well to make me look at this broader perspective I you know sometimes keep my blinders on so I appreciate Jason your answer in the conversation we had on this right now
18:18 think they I Wanna do is an experiment if you look at the answers to our poll
18:24 ah
18:26 everybody voted for strategy you know where it is probably for the best chance demonstrate as leadership all right everybody voted for strategy i Wanna Redo this poll after people listen to that first fifteen twenty minutes cause I'm changing minded to a collaboration
18:48 you know a couple people put all of the above it I'm like okay the question is which is the best way
18:56 so I love to post let's talk about this right now these are only problem is the first word is strategy and whenever we see strategy we go well that has to be the right answer
19:07 you know cause you know we're so often pulled into tactics and technical and like none na AH strategy strategy strategy but Yeah base on this conversation I need change my answer to
19:17 Yeah they even now even though you know I did the numbers reader the highlight of the Collaboration I also pick strategy and I think that's a mighty wind gusts that's where I wanna be more as a business leader is focusing on the strategy is that where we demonstrate the leadership which has to do with you know bringing people to division but have you done might be more with collaboration so if you don't play Devil's advocate here for a second but if you doubt I guess either right problems do you even know how to start the collaboration collaboration alone is I don't think is Gonna get might not get you the end result I looked at this and will I will I voted and I voted for it obviously the strategy as well I thought about you know the biggest thing that I do is reduce uncertainty in the business and that's not through collaboration or you're optimizing profitability it's by focusing on the right problems and then figuring out who I need to collaborate to get the job done saddam A little bit of fun you know
20:19 they're not mutually exclusive has been remotely my faked
20:25 a dud I mean i can build on each other really So you have to yet to have a strategy Univision that you then you know work cross functionally to evangelize and compel everybody that's the right strategy and vision and then that thing has to then be in service of a a business management thing that gives you profitability and that like I Can't I don't you can divorce or three but I think maybe collaboration is one that make success happen better
20:51 now right here get me to rethink my answer now I am now I had I really do hate group i had a client a month ago actually out yet and we're working together with software company down in Atlanta area and
21:06 I spent time with their development had and
21:11 how do we get the more productive I don't know what intellect leaking is burned down and burn up we could all the same to do it but as I dug into it they were actually fairly effective in delivering what they're doing when it came down to is they didn't have they were not focusing on the right things right they were they were spending a lot time building things that aren't adding value to the user the buyer or the company and that's not productive work and so to your point rob The the tip of the spear is the strategy Ah and doing the right things I am I've been going back and forth reading that the big questions and what the first question is how can product management best demonstrate business leadership The second question is where does product matter had the best chance to demonstrate business leadership and there's a slight semantic difference in my head right now is
22:03 howdy in the first question how can you the best demonstrate the leadership It is a lot collaborate collaboration is key there are maybe the two of them are entered intertwined and you need both of them Ah but I you know my split personalities gone back and forth and maybe it's a semantic difference to the way you asked the question is gabby Giffords Nee doing my job well be to the strategy part well can be a huge enhancement for the entire organization for the whole business right me being a business leader is me helping enable everybody understand why the why and the context and be successful with that you know i learned a long time ago broke the dam
22:47 redo it gets back to this idea of reducing uncertainty learn this back
22:53 early in my career out in new products at Duracell Adam M You know we we delivered time and time again we didn't do more with less we delivered exactly what we're going to say to the market i remember having a conversation The tie with Troy parent who is the CEO and he said to me the one lesson you how to learn to deal with the stock market is date they expect certainty they don't like uncertainty and you know it you'll see the stock bells around if you ever get into this role never over promise never ill endeavor other deliver just do it you Gotta say to do and I think I've always you know I've always seen them product in in all the rules and I've had that in leadership Yogi you can't you can't be successful unless you're collaborating at influencing others and you can't you know a provide the kind of margins unless you truly understand your product your able oh be able to get pricing right you're able to The sales Force Roma from giving away all your profits but the one thing that senior management always expects or even see it now in in all the operating meetings and I I go to will have to present about the Portfolio Is
24:07 if you can be consistent and you can create that consistency and remove reduced whatever word you Wanna use reduced uncertainty then reduce the risk in MP how people make decisions Ah It just I think that's the true sign of leadership for me at least like investiture style of leadership because it means that everything else underneath is riding is running smoothly can crash which is what the it's i've I've and I'm sure everybody said meetings where you know you say you Gonna do something in there the result turns out to be something else nothing was communicating along the way it catches or everybody by surprise and now you're reacting Competition comes out and does something different there's any regulatory required that we didn't know and now we have to change our development to build something that is how we throw away the end that kind of uncertainty that's where I think leadership gets I should people get D be motivated and eleven am and causes more problems so I love that that helps you a little grand better at how I look at it as I look at this question in it why I say hold my answer about a top box
25:23 you know I I guess knowing the background like a tragedy when I hit I saw Ah but it also was a situation where where
25:33 Jobs at one point did not one thing we have to do a whole bunch of things and so Steve talked to me about the business management life cycles I that's what best know nobody has touched yet
25:50 It does have is to me a lot ah the person who asked the question knows exactly what I'm Gonna say but then I don't remember what I I'm Gonna say
26:02 but I think you're talking about
26:05 the three horizons
26:09 Salami answer that see if the one who were looking for so we were having a conversation the other day about the The varying roles and the varying metrics for product managers through time and that out what what happened to me a lot when I do training or workshops is the the the VP will come in and say will steve don't you think the product manager should be paid or compensated on revenue
26:39 and I I is always a you know don't you think you know so clearly I know where he's coming from and my answers now
26:51 What I really would say is that product manager should be punished on next year's revenue
26:58 because the decisions we make this year and the product won't turn into revenue til next year
27:04 but it got me thinking about what are the outputs in the outcomes for the different roles of product management and I I've actually come to believe that there are three almost entirely unrelated Product rolls with in the title product manager
27:23 grant has a long history as a strategic product manager looking at what markets should we enter and Products should we create that we don't have to day and if you look at that you certainly can't measure that on this year's revenue while you're still you know planning what markets we might want the inner so in the case of like a strategic product manager or a business manager
27:50 you'd say well actually that's probably well researched business ideas that can be prioritized or the quality of that kind of work which isn't necessarily in our outcome but it's something right then product manager that the technical product manager is more focused on the next release not future products that we're Gonna deliver a year or two down the road but a next release that we're Gonna deliver six months down the road or freeway salaried and they're nice like you're still can't measure them on revenue but you can measure them on the quality their prioritization and their availability to the Dev team and the number one failure and product the number one failure and agile is that the product owner is not prepared when the developer say I need more work and so they end up working on whenever the hell they want because there's not prioritize back like to work from and then the third Roll I see is sometimes called product marketing and I prefer to call it product growth manager
28:56 that
28:57 and that role is focused on how do we sell more of what we've already built you know I have no control over what was built I don't have any control about what features we're Gonna put the next release what I have is version two point three it's available to me now Hada why increase sales and that's in looking for fish friction looking for friction in the go to market it's like making sure the sales guys have a a good tool kit making sure that marketing has what they need to be effective in terms of Lee Jan and whatever else and that's the only role of the three that I think you can legitimately say the actions you take will that now will generate revenue this year
29:44 and so for Me I look at the attic as there are three different roles optimizing profitability in three very very different ways Across the lifecycle
29:57 See I actually had no preconceived answer you're Gonna come up with and that was exactly the answer I was looking for so
30:05 perfect actually a as you were gone through that rant I start thing I could change that third question to be more about helping drive the now and the products out there to recruit coat really cool evaded strategy planning and collaboration is lobby could have made it of those three horizons and the three never cross product management although we didn't do that but Yeah we really are going to need to have some sort of flashy thing on the screen Steve Rant Steve ran everybody knows where we're going
30:38 that that was that was purely because our our my room is right next to my office and the dryer was in high spin mode and it was so loud I didn't want to keep having my continued stuff so it was a quick pint the steve just because it was Gonna be two lot of hours in talk
30:55 so with that ASIC perfect transition we're going to get to our open ended questions were the days ah the first one what is the biggest mistake Product measures make that get in the way of them becoming a business leader
31:09 and I'm Gonna just throw out right now biggest mistake I made was I talked about three years five years i didn't talk about the it is the first step or to it took to get the three RS five years so as as the said my background was more strict strategy right new markets new product where are we going where have we evolving and disrupting and rethinking and I will do the work I talked to the cost of do my visits I would figure it out in a michael this is how the market's changing this or we're going to be five years old and I thought trying to sell people that vision
31:47 most people who don't have a didn't have the the contacts I have from other visits in conversations in B mode of other people who are executing on it are not finding your favorite not notch strategy chess players were thinking ten moves ahead You're able to think why two moves ahead is the biggest mistake I made was trying to sell people five moves ahead when it couldn't either and I couldn't get them at bay were so boss they didn't understand what their action should be I lost him in the vision not in the highly get to that bridge yeah the problem you have is you're trying to sell fire prevention to a firefighter
32:26 and they're like dude that's cute as the dickens there's a fire right there let me go put the fire out and you're like no no but if we if we had sprinklers we wouldn't have fires and they're like well okay Yeah but there's a fire right there and it's really hard to communicate to be thinking second Horizon third horizon with people who live in the first arise
32:47 i I would agree with that Ah
32:51 Jason talked to me about your experience with this so I think it's a matrix situation where you're looking at you know present tense versus feature Anthony tolliver to going without grant because I I see those big mistake to uM if you're a product manager who tends to who's focusing on a strategy but even if you're one of the other product managers like say technical product management It can it goes again back to that bullet where the Premier's i train that couldn't move to the next step in their career were the ones that were focused solely on their product then you think well that's your job your product manager Inside Yeah that's better job but there's other products possibly in your company in your sweet and think about and to understand where the visible those other products are about it mister John Harmer primal you're talking about with gmail versus calendar know what's going on with calendar and how's my GMAIL product going to relate to that in the product manager I I couldn't make that step are the ones that stayed kind of siloed seen my products most important thing to me and that's what I am be measured and success but in in fact you know you having a of complete organizational of thinking about where all products arts and you know it is what is the challenge to to cross the threshold Is from your business the other
34:14 job I thought mean at a even vote you and ends on the soccer do it at Google i Gotta get your thoughts when you sam you seen it both for it's hard to beat be cited see beyond seen as a consultant Ah from getting Agile Now You're with inside of the behemoth of Google You Know What's your thought OH My What Jason was talking about with the the blinders on the product but also in general what would how would you answer this question Yeah I to tie back to what you and and Steve Andreasen were saying so they iTAR by the three horizons I think if you get stuck in any one of those areas it's Gonna be a problem so if you're too laser focused on my tactical little world That's a problem and if you're too laser focused on the five years and can't connect the Dots in between that's Gonna be a problem
34:57 are those at one of the problems I had at the beginning of my time at Google was like IKE I didn't
35:04 Do a good enough job of convincing the team that this this vision thing why that was important as you say here's the vision that I am really working on my fires now I'd that seems hard I don't wanna deal with that so it's like connecting through all the way if any if he breaks down anywhere along there ah that's that's Gonna be your biggest mistake right you can't be too tactical you can't be too strategic you have to bounce A course because why would product management ever be law goldilocks and product management right
35:38 exactly raw
35:42 well I I jotted down three things because I I think this is a great question about it made me think about three things what is a product managers who think they have authority to do something
35:56 they have responsibility but they they Another hobby authority that often gets get rid of them making decisions and leading eleven they do not lie with everybody Else I think the second thing for me was scope creep the story goes back to my same but my third point which is better able to deliver on their promises which is trying to balance between attack on in the strategic try to balance in the short term and long term it's you know we stayed all the time I I Kinda because your chains are a steal siege because we get removing from waterfall to Agile we have to keep go back in and telling the product owners don't pull more things into the backlog that that weren't in the original sprint and you know now we that we have to have a separate meeting for that it's about scope creep in know causes so many things down downstream and you try to collaborate with others and coordinate with other so you know clamp on scope creep M m and not living on your promises I think are the biggest things that Road somebody's ARM somebody's ability to be an effective business labor and rabbit few do's allow scope creep to happen if you pull in those two stories into their backlog You're not Gonna be able to live on your promises right the more things you try to start the future you end up finishing like it's a self reinforcing destructive cycle exactly about who are fighting the hard way here it goes back to my first training on Mana requirements In in requirements that can be successful and it was this concept of adding chunky and stuff so you if if anything you're eliminating removing stuff from the back locked it to make sure delivering at least on an admittedly viable deliverables feature or product or whatever you Gonna call about it but you make sure that you know at a minimum you'd about delivering something of value not keeping things in that are it just keep the bill track happening in it an email get to release
37:52 We answer that question like this like dang we can just say what we said but I'm Gonna I'm Gonna do a different pivot on there so we talked a lot about the problem and there's a consensus about right kit not be not like the blinders Yet you you know being able to live across the Horizon so outside of that sort of holistic view which seem to be an issue in outside of the duracell role of do what you said you're going to do deliver on your promises What advice would you give to a product manager looking to become more a business leader robert going to go to you you're the VP of product you never gone through a lot of change if you got an up and coming product management professional I'm not going in a title or level some sense what outside missed the do what you said you Gotta do your mannered sculptor what would you be what would you what would you say that's what would be your best advice to a private me I I advise and I work a lot with our junior people In work as I said last week where where wearing a huge transformation mode right now of trying to create a best practice organization itself I had these conversations all the time and it's typically around two things
39:03 What is always just just deliver on promises don't try to over deliver it O M M you know him and don't try to put speculation into your just give his fact based things says the first segment and the other thing I tell people all the time Better JR they'll try to rise early career is it a it with very easy for all and I you could sit him beat up any product that you that you look at what what's the matter what it Is but there's very few people actually can can look at a product find the gaps again comes in they also talk about the solutions and how it's Gonna be different and I always tell the junior people are trying to think about The other side you know you're sitting there listening to a patch argue product but try to prioritize it and you back give me what you think about the decision there has to be made and what information you know
40:00 I will little thing that I roll out and I should lab David at some point but I also teaches in my class which is there's you know is he the two states are either trying to advance by knowledge and something or trying to make a decision and most of the meetings at happened or Oh I wish there were more decision based decisions they have to be more knowledge base decisions that knowledge base meanings but I always think that yourself and what happens is people covered it up OH up button you all this information new SATA has a leader at the pick apart this information safe okay see this piece works in this piece whereas I could put together something and I try to get them to think beforehand or even asked the question beforehand what is it that this meeting is about is it too events are learning it in a certain area or if you're looking for a decision from somebody at that's the case what information do I need in order to be able to give you that did to do to achieve those outcomes for you they go figure out how to collect that information and whatever what you what I've been fighting short of having great having to scrap what I want somebody to come in this is what the page looked like of which I had to do my MBA class but What about work when I try to do is it will be fighting is that it's getting much more specific is getting less of the throw up on you and I had to pick it apart and it's it's really started to create really interesting meeting so That's that's that's what I tried it and that's how you build a credibility and I think for a junior person it's all about credibility it's all about relevance and it's you know it's having somebody come to you and say that's less IT owns a business leadership is when people look to you for for answers so that's that's that's what I've been doing at least you know it's a it's a great
41:51 I agree with it at know my first answer here I will Admit i came from a G E background bright and so the espionage training they gave to me even as a market research strategy analyst right I always like if you can't if you could talk the numbers The business case the pro forma if you can speak to them impact to the business
42:17 in a big beat to be company like G E R R and I chat when I was there being able to be versatile in The financials right was a core in you know it was a differentiator to be able to do that because I could have that conversation with an FBI a person in the room and come across at end Maybe Islamist places where the CFO holds the purse strings being able to I found is a business leader I got more access to I to have my strategies happen because I could talk totally financially the business acumen financial acumen a big able to understand Props negotiate allocations what the appian a person to make my profit with more profitable right different things that you understand the levers I had to pull you don't again now we're getting a curt year but lovers lab because I could impact my numbers if if I had
43:14 longer term business case what would you do and how do we do that and so for me it was just purely the financial stuff Yeah going back to the Jason rule from My Point three on page one
43:25 I think Holistically I would say it's not just finance it's every all the major stakeholders it's marketing and sales it's a development design legal it's it's everybody so I sort of take a united a sport building around what you were talking about I think Rob Jason I'm Gonna hang on to you because I just gave your answer from page one
43:50 A lot my dog woke up so that's why is I keeps shooting a
43:55 of but suddenly attacked my Master Yeah and I think I think with a lot of this conversation I think we need a distinct differentiated ever I think there's one word that we need to change here because it can be a whole different conversation if we change the business the word business to product so what would be your best advice or product been looking become more of a product leader
44:16 and so my perspective and I think that we were coming I think I'm struggling without a little bit because we're taking product leadership in some some of these ways and I think it in we expect that you'd be a product leader without being a business leader you know unexpected yet rotational a product manager seen apartment for VP apartment for scipio to become the CEO will require them to have some sort of abuse business leadership skills as well
44:42 so No My Advice to any Gonna Junior product manager again go outside of product and developed just don't stay there because if you don't know how the rest of the business works then you're Gonna have a hard time getting in their shoes to convince them of your vision of your challenges of turning them into your world as products of a product management is doing and so is really just getting outside your comfort zone in your own in your own areas In move in and sit in some of those meetings go a sales call centers on those legal reviews and contracts work says on the finance reviews I'M just get outside your comfort zone or just your sprints and things like that
45:24 and I can tell you live in a battleground state because you did the perfect debate tactic they're of not answering the question that was asked but changing the question to what you want to answer So no I I completely agree and I I actually I would argue you could say you could keep this mindset that answers the same right it's you know it's an evolution not right ah I could argue you can be a little outcry a business leader while you're still a junior product Person have and that may be part of the path that gets you to be that big P P A whatever the product you Prussian Officer hadn't rising tide would be better they call me to the gut jagger your thoughts
46:08 so though with a version of what I was Gonna say was was Jason's answer was basically get curious about the other parts of the business
46:16 and it also ties back to what you were talking about with the different levers to like it You mentioned the word that did that I triggered on was impact so in the business you're in the impact you had on the businesses that bottom line thing that's how that's your that's your okay hours i guess I I and a google we have slightly different impact miserables than revenue sometimes it's certainly the very highest levels are obviously stomach measure revenue but like getting curious about where your your work and of work you could get into can have impact for other people
46:50 I think becomes you start to look like a leader because you end up helping them in their careers gap them in there all night they will turn to you for things and then you could get become a big alligator after you do the smaller leadership you know It was the Yeah CS Lewis and Humility is not thinking less of yourself it's sleep with yourself less exactly and speaking that my favorite person who thinks of everybody else first Steve Johnson on this one
47:17 well Y'all I gave everybody gave such good answers a mine's really really tactical I I have found in my career that I'm not very good at Stakeholder management or communication I'm like more of a benevolent dictator it's like I've decided what to do it would everybody just shut the hell up and let me do what the product needs a you know I don't need your yapping at me and so I put together a road map and I presented unlike see you read the roadmap we're done here right so the advice I would give to a product manager coming up particularly well in any product manager role but more of Ah you know if you want to be seen as a leader definitely work on your skills in managing up his set of jet I don't vote in in my past of here I showed you that document once nine months ago while why are you asking me questions you know a continuous feeding of positive information to the leadership team seems to be something that we all could get better at but certainly I could be better at
48:26 See you started making me think my introduction of how he'll either ability you had was bag any one benevolent dictator be brought it all the way back around city that's why I love what Ah
48:39 running Time I want to make the server rack and fired I know it's not really a rapid fire question but Yes John Mongan start with you am so Glad to have your voice on the panel this week first thoughts how would you approach getting leadership to realize business business leadership role product manager chandler
48:57 understand what's important to them and how what you're doing makes them successful
49:04 rock goldberg
49:06 I would say get product management change the how the organization views punishments when your product management board to the focus of of the other business leadership jason it's like
49:21 asked them what life would be like without product management
49:26 answer Steve Johnson
49:32 Say no more often
49:36 it out be be the person
49:39 and I'll leave it at that John John said if farming Yeah be a you be the person who says now and has business reason why because if we don't define our jobs as being
49:51 ah making of of choosing then we're just Waiters in a restaurant Sang Yeah I can't go get you a spaghetti with motor oil if that's what you want sure you know we need to say now that is not good for you
50:09 how
50:13 Steve has ever said I'll leave it at that and actually left it at that now now that's why these sessions always run all the way up to the the timer why we do we sort of do mine as a summer because again I at my split personalities becoming through today but I think it really comes down to
50:33 understanding what leadership looking for in helping them get their ah you know be a resource to help them get to their outcomes and it's going to be different in different companies right I think the G E background the I just where we have a very strong CFO office helping drive strip strategy planning that we needed to have that but indifferent compass could different things so I you know we're in the community every Monday they open ended questions Gonna go up once the ball's going to go up friday word have this wonderful conversations John Harmer so good to add your voice to the conversation we hope that we should hang on future panels there was great thanks how a tremor rob Goldberg I hope this becomes a habit week we can have more of these conversations and have you on the panel as well I've always bug see Jonathan as always it's a pleasure and I'm actually gonna go out you might ESPN game and the winner of this week's panel of Jesus vince a lot because he changed the way I think about this question and I thank you so much everybody have a wonderful weekend evoke the you actually like I know care of I buy