Product Management Chaos

Product Management Chaos
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TOTW - Product Management Chaos
0:00 Welcome to product growth leaders topic of the week our topic this week product management chaos it almost seems like this should have been the theme for the year just chaos rifle for sure that everything going on so we'll get right started with our question from Monday where do you find the most Chaos in your Product Management Transit and I noticed Jason set his alarm early monday morning to get up he had his answer and I think before nine fifteen I mean what up at night I have my answer and there's about fifteen years ago
0:38 who share yes so the first answer we have a from jason The most chaotic piece for me has been managing enhancement requests in ideas from different stakeholders while maintaining a track of innovation and proper prioritization lots to do and a few to do it so talk to me Jason about fifteen years of this chaos you don't mean business enterprise product management at it's peak Richmond another great piece on his figures in two thousand and fourteen or fifteen while a different kind of inputs two an enterprise product manager with an already established product is this a lot to balance and you honestly can't make everybody happy I mean Stephen how many times you talk about this as well
1:22 I always like to say that I got us where I was a product management executive war by saying no and being the VP of no evil hear a lot from me no and yet you don't wanna be the no department it all ended up doing it are just spying by is because you're not only as a product manager is actually a better product management are you in charge of the romance when you're in charge of protecting it In in and sometimes that comes with the no and as a result of being told no ill individuals like to kind of work the system either politically or through other means maybe Logically go to people that they think can actually get the work done in which case you have to kind of run interference as a like a goalie in soccer mom to to keep all the projectiles were coming from every different direction so at times in in in In my time as a part of Android that has been the most chaotic moments some some quick question at couple follow on questions on that one how do you think about bug fix verses Enhancement request I mean there's a common you know that's a common thing where ours it's a require it a bug fixers enhancement request steve it you used to have a good line on this and Yes I'm drunk softball you don't know the answer
2:48 but
2:50 It was something like you know a bug fixes something that we coded it wrong if if it was a bad environment it's different Yeah I don't remember sort of that but it was like a sieve Three is it's not documented it doesn't work as documented so just change the documentation and the codes fine
3:13 or a set of four is it's working as documented in we hate that so
3:19 In our case it's in a half request but you know if it's working as designed then you know
3:25 it's a it's a change to a working design is enhanced request but I you but your right I mean a lot of I have one am my Yeah You know I think I'll just go ahead and commit myself to being the guy who always says terrible things about salespeople and I've actually worked well with really good salespeople but one of my one of my Persona four sales is is Kevin the world's worst sales person but in real life you know that that person said to his customers you know turn and everything as Us have one that way they'll have to work on it and our in our legal commitment was if we accept us have wine we will resolve it within twenty four hours and so suddenly this you know all of Kevin's customers are saying now this sub want you know we don't like that blew that you used
4:19 so we ended up having to severity is you know customer reported a rarity and the actual severity
4:27 of it in Illinois in one of the work rounder my team or or teams have been using this the setting we're good trying to get to grant was is like ray area is it is it enhance request or is it a missed required and all you want to get me miata Does offer missed requirements for fifteen off in I love it when when customers or internal stakeholders able to clearly missed requirement so therefore it's a bug therefore has to be done in like that that's not a thing reading a book on right but military area they I love there is Yeah there's something you can't determine was a mystery requirements on you know because whenever told me it's never was required but
5:14 OH they do they well you know how to figure out if something is an issue or visit enhancement and that can be where a lot of the chaos them from his that kind of discussion is befell level two level three of your support tears In which case like the you said if is an issue sometimes it's easier living in order to get into a patch of verses of was which a little more due diligence in order to kind of get it into an formal J release and so that is weaker around is make things issues versus
5:45 Yeah at at a weekly things will get humiliated interesting actually because the conversation because in an enterprising organization only I'll do the people it thousand out of developers working on enterprise level systems
6:01 you know we look at the world in terms of discretion over non discretionary look at the world in terms of steady state versus priority We we coat everything in downcast a in minute increment for our developers and we look at things we we started by following the garden format which the guard run go transform and we talk about ugh because the you look at what Garters map you know they always say about eighty percent of the world does it run that non discretionary spend so we took God we actually broke it down into four categories we have we have technology rug I bet we have the service because the architecture might be out of date or it's still you just have to do the bug Texas AM also a product of studies they brought a steady say products are on the two hundred hours there's no there's nothing other than The CPS saying do this and allow each are probably about I want to say close to forty to fifty percent of of of what you have in any psych on our cycles are multi cards they should meetings over to the sprint it because roadwork god the podge right now but when you look at what we got it so we have this place up we had this cat right and we had this prod run which then the prod run at things like customer customer committed customers paying for that that's not discretionary have to do it it's while regulatory change you you have no choice out and do it at every break the other part of the world into Ebay and I hear things that are Gonna grow a bit and things that are going to grow revenue and what we're getting we're starting to see is he can really start to see you your business cases written for you so if you looking to modernize a platform you can easily do that because you can see how much tech and prod run we might have in this in in the system and who I was and were committing dollars on a non discretionary basis you look at the discretionary side growing up it does that's all your product enhancements in a represents a smaller areas it represents a larger portion than our grow revenue which includes new things roadmap roadmap item and anything that would teach arm transformative so in a an organization is as big as ours we it's it's interesting when you look across at you know and inuit you talking about hundreds of millions of dollars A million man hours are being spent any given year a multi millions of hours least are they giving it to do this kind of development work you look at it and you boil it down to we don't have a lot of things in the pipeline that was that were truly growing revenue most of what we're doing is around growing ebay and making those enhancements to that and the OH and if we get you know it it's a it's a very very happy day we actually have a roadmap item AH anybody's development canada and then we're spending a lotta time you started intact that will I think a lot of organizations we went through this in two thousand and eight and then you went to another transformation of systems now I think you're Gonna go to yet another transformation assistance as things start to begin because of the Pandemic of these articles pandemic German and an Italian so that means moving to the cloud moving data you asked digitizing a lot of what what
9:13 A before but that's how we look at the world and so it's interesting to hear you know when you talk about Oh you know i said the same thing that Luna Jason said you know it's dead it's every month we got their prioritization every cycle wilbur good will go into the next sprint or trying to think through it to be looking across you know a portfolio that has idol I think I have a hundred thirty eight products about two hundred word or two hundred and almost three hundred extensions on most products you know it you're constantly fighting for resources and and I privatization is because it yeah lab eleven business unit Think were seventeen hundred people who are in our development organization at it edit and without controlled and it'll be just starting to put this in it's very hard to say I like it adds that discourse of that and it's Gonna be a that's what you know that's what we're hoping to get to but I think the Portfolio for me and and the privatization of projects for me is probably the most chaotic part in any given cycle for for not just me but to all the product leads at third What the wages rising the way you just described that I can say that I'm that that's the sheer scale of that is just massive to think about and then the newer the second point here I I you know we could probably do full topic of the weeks just on enhancement requests and privatisation me those are topics you go and do I've got a whole bunch of rabbit hole questions I'm Gonna leave for that one but You know improvisations are the first to hear the first one was Jason the second one I moved up was yours rob talking about the portfolio the third was Greg Fenton we talked about you know he's great with both of you and it's your lens the single product land in the day they luge event hands and request or backing out looking at the Portfolio and the Limited resources just as you talked about it it's it's not easy and it's chaotic and you know if you have process that's chaotic if you have methods it's chaotic It gets even worse when you don't
11:21 so the fervor or or
11:26 way way up at this goes back to your answer from a few weeks ago jason when you talked about not bringing in your hand answered requests data base across when you you know instead of my their king JR but it doesn't mess with your kingdom it actually become quite easy
11:41 or as the we don't have that law all the regulars the prioritization in get whenever they feel like doing and then makes it easy a lot of a lot of products don't work that way and product prosecutors are in the chaos of trying to figure out prior to say
11:57 right and in it's a lot of is because of the dedicated resources and the small the smallness of the Portfolio we don't have it I would love to have the luxury of of of that but we don't just having scope creep having somebody in them having about the product owner The add add something into a sprint the it's either be the entire system collapses and out of them enemy had delays in scope creep actually I'm a I should have thought of that before scope creep is a chaos chaos cause
12:28 right I it's terrible you know those go to the next the other questions the first one here was used eve it seems every department works for a different company no one seems to have clarity on their own jobs for the jobs of any of their colleagues clarity and roles and responsibilities critical and I'm going to do a little play on words here I think I'm going to start calling you and AH are in teach Ah anti chaos use like chaos True clarity
12:55 indeed indeed well you know I as I was listening to everyone else talk you know I I for the companies that do have process I mean the chaos comes from people trying to bypass it you know my example of the sales guy saying well hey you know turn ins have ones for everything you know you misspelled you know a word on a screen somewhere you know sidewalk and my discussions on road mapping you know so many people look at that and say maybe if we do the road map just write weekend you don't have more resources
13:31 you know even when you do have process there it's it's so frustrating that people are bypassing the process and I think a lotta that always goes back to clarity and Rawls I I've talked in the past about are you a products business or you a consulting shop and the answer is the sales people are always in a consulting shop and so they honestly think their job is to go out and find anybody with money
14:01 and then take it and then come back in and say okay this guy wants a thing that we've never made before but it doesn't look that hard to me ammunition software right so if we just took you know the UI from that thing and the architecture The app thing and at the upright need a database Yeah we Oughta go get one of those pictures put together right I mean how hard could it be and you know I'm like that should be a capital offense we should just kill him right there on the spot and tell him to stop you in the but how much of that is you know they get trained in strategic selling it consultative selling go find the pain point and stick your finger in it and make it hurt if we as product management and product marketing and Alex specials or whatever the title isn't aren't giving them the contacts for the problems we have in helping them guide the conversation around the problems we solve that we know going to there's the old saying if if you don't tell us Engineers what the build they're going to build something because that's what they do and if you don't tell sales what to sell and how to you know that's the value prop and the segments they're going to go sell stuff because that's what they do you're right that's a very good point Yeah right
15:11 but you could people it's got some of this also you know I it struck me I wrote down because it struck me when you said sunday that are we really falling in the bill by partner type of analysis and I don't think we'll we don't have them I've never really met a product manager was really good at jokes there two builders like to build stuff and there's an organisation behind in the building or a day are partners and acquirers they like a bolt on stuff in times and Yeah and we have that we have that in our company we have one shop that says i can't deal with our tech the group I'm not by my Way forward and I have another group that gazillion hours are being spent on I think that should have probably been outsourced to somebody else is touchy when it comes to A I invite those types of things I I just though and I've never met a a product manager that has really had a good head strategically around that Cap I cover their path forward kind of analysis that says let me take a second step back we need is we need to achieve justice unless I and my best way forward is Gonna be to either built by a part of my Way there so rob actually that that's an amazing transition to the answer I had next in in sort of the conversation you and I had had earlier eyes that while the most recent case was an executive the most frequent chaos has been the engineering trying to do their own thing A city or had a development who thinks their team knows better than the customer who was not built here syndrome since they in on wastes time know the capabilities that could easily be done with commercial off the shelf components in those types of things I actually for me
16:52 When I got into the more corporate development side of product management it was because I was at a company where I had a head of engineering who this is how I would describe right not built here syndrome but he knew everybody everything better than the product manager the customers themselves and my President and I said okay if we're going to be able to deliver value to our market we're not going to get it through him and we you know so we've that's where we start identifying partnerships and acquisitions I mean we would be the path partner validate the concepts and acquire so I'm actually that company I actually had all of them we had An executive who told me no change your numbers because it was the president's idea like I no that's not that's chaos but I wouldn't do it we had I had ahead of sales who said IF insert large manufacturing company name here wanted to buy forks from Us we'd find a way to sell them forks because they wanted to they would sell whatever the customer asked them for and that he had the same head of engineering who did this year it was all chaos but The most part for me it was an engineer overstepping their an engineer trying to you know we joke about product men were trying to solution
18:13 this was an engineer trying to get into the what not you know outside of a hat Alice no one seems to have clarity on their jobs or the jobs of anyone else crying development says I want to decide what we're Gonna build Ah I want product managers to make it look pretty or to do all the things I don't wanna do and sale says OH no everybody's wrong but me I've talked to ones of people and i've got an insight on what the market needs
18:40 in steam I would ask all of us to go over and start over because now I can make that first page about prioritization in the second page about clarity
18:49 i didn't think about it until you brought that up and I should have because I was typing clarity multiple times Indian road map issue
18:57 is this all about road maps and the poor use a roadmap to be able to detect watch them you know just from a strategical come up a feature base level or thematic level but also on a strategic level is you know is it the poor understanding of the market the poor architecture of products that that really aren't
19:20 Scalable and interoperable you know it and and then your stock rise as a product manager you're stuck you have to build now because if I can't bulldog and is no API is and I I have to build something good there's nothing Else I can do is guess is set to put another bandaid on US I like how you imbue unless I modernize the entire platform and so I think it all comes down to two blue we just we just don't know how to do road batting well and eneb well maybe from beyond the feature set more of a strategic level in Iraq and you saw that the blog I had put out there on the product leadership imperative you know we've gotten really good at building things efficiently
20:05 building I'm right where I feel like the biggest issue the chance for us to make make major strides in in delivering value is on building the right thing that's right it's the old drucker thing that you know aH efficiency versus effectiveness efficiency as building things right effective as is building the right things and in most organizations I engage with I look at their development organizations are like where can we get more efficient like you guys are doing a lot of stuff really efficiently you might be doing the wrong things efficiently but you're doing it efficiently in in you know I look at this look at the first page privatisation that deftly mine I think those all three could you could put under a strategic road map you know what in strategy will do we go and how do we do that privatisation I think Steve's clarity is part of the solution how do we do a better job understanding that who makes those decisions because it's is it sails as it's executives or is it you know in the reality who makes the final and Jason who make do you make the final decision you make the recommendation to your head of product or you're head of product make it to the CeO who makes the final decision on the strategic fix
21:18 it is so similar European company it's very collaborative and everything's by Committee
21:26 so it's a camel
21:29 The old saying that a camel is a horse designed by Committee it is it's actually about I mean I think for the most part we have Ted's a product lines and me are the you I would not the ultimate decision maker but really close to the lead enhancer Yeah exactly led influencers Aussie with the business case they own all the data the business case for things and so they are really it's not really the chief product officer what we do have his organization Colonel owns the entire Portfolio strategy if you will come from kind of a business lands for the next several years away in one go where each of the product my managers are looking at how that product it should meet at strategy No but I think that you know there is a continuous there's a there's an opportunity for continuous improvement there and I think you know going back to what rob said you know if you have a tight rope out that new tab is responding to a well communicated agreed upon kind of excitable strategy that is associated with a vision that everybody's kind of bought into front all areas of the organization then the movement moves so than everything moves a lot easier in a chaos is not a completely eliminated but is severely diminished then on the same side you have a sales team that is train with your right tool kits on what to sell in yours in your solutions in how to sell that so they're they're they're not all on their own like running around trend it is I put together things a customer has money that they want to spend money now since I've been in those situations my current company were a little bit more organized and I actually have to encourage my sales team to be a little bit more imaginative Two things are I know that we can do that's on our roadmap oP's possibly push forward with a big enough deal on my animals that I been beaten down or something they're just very very good sales they may never sell that something that we don't currently have where I'm like C'mon you can dream a little else is always it's end of it in the scope
23:42 so there is kind of a little bit of that you want them to come help move us to the to next on to the next level but Yeah I can went all replaces her with the answer their for now I added to emulate it actually comes back to this whole I got this whole concept of first strategic growth framework where it starts with the corporate strategy who are you what you do then it moves to the Portfolio strategy product markets tragic go to market strategy and you know it you need to have those guide rails there to give them
24:11 show them where the Guy Rosario so they stay within them but also give them enough visibility into the vision of where we're going so they can have the flexibility to do that but it comes down to roll clarity to do that properly right in and in having the stuff they're robbed who makes the final call for privatization for you guys
24:30 it's at the business owner level so we got our division we have
24:36 four major of five major product of business units and then it rolls out about us eleven sub business units and each one rose up to a either a disability and it has a general manager and they're making the call if it's a major business unit like a bank broker dealer businesses are issuer business is UM ill go to the us This is only the President of that that particular units you have a product manager advocating for their whatever if that goes to a what we call a portfolio product manager our product Lee that owns all the product bundles in that business unit but then rolls up to a
25:18 to a business owner either our president or general manager and then monthly we go through privatisation process and you're Gonna laughed at EM I'm sure Jason this group is Patty happened in is Rocco and then it comes down to our city are deciding whether dealt with at
25:34 thirty they get started on it then it's our products hand altogether and it comes down to somebody who really doesn't have a product catalog Yeah but Chaos
25:46 Yeah Sowing I'm actually a you know in in the organization currently in it's interesting that dynamic has been for at least A Oh a while now that the product management has a little bit too much authority I think Ah UM I like the nice balance between the head of technology and had a product management because I want to make sure that we are not introducing more They're they're moving in the in the right process regards a DEv OPS and those kind of things in Solar Id I've seen it in on the organisers where you have a great relationship between had a products and edit technology when the company I'm in Canada now it's like the product Products really are rules the roost in the header technology is just there to cannot catch and yeah where where where will I get like bring out at work sorry I can't wear flip the other way Yeah where I think technology has a little too much to say in in in what we do at other adult on an ongoing basis be another to be nurse our topic another installment are now it later David I think it's partly goes into a concept
26:55 of there's no I in growth of growth as a team sport and how do we work together across all of it now that into the poll question you have you can see my my answer the poll was executives but my answer in the open ended was the city of engineering let me explain that I was separating like C sweet Executives from the on the feet on the ground people you work with the partner with So I was good at working with my My Dev Lead I was good with working with marketing and sales engineers
27:31 but it was the executive it was the chaos and the executive leadership team meeting about how to make those decisions I obviously other people put executives there to what where did you guys vote Jason job We I voted on product management
27:48 and hoping that enough attention to this particular with it i I put I put all My Hope in you One Day on Monday So You're allowed a to the server room I look at the first word in and I think the first answer's always but I think actually I think sales are traditionally has been worth been a Lotta chaotic and I say sales US probably more a kept current accounts not initially net new for people that are trying to keep their current customers happy because there's always a threat of contracts Yeah cause we're going to leave they'll get this new by tomorrow or you know we're Gonna do a renewal in in the renewal they need to have his new saying and and they pay for it seems to have select that raw chaos Gonna happen citing I rolled it into product management Because was the product managers at we're Gonna dealing not with the input from the audience request the executives everyone's around they might have a desire or need and they may trump something in in create a new strategy that is outside of our process of actually you know In those tactics but it's never been too much of it too much of an issue for me there it's always been at that level Damn you take me back to college the ability to answer questions weren't sure what would ask it and just come out pull it out anger and actually have a really good answer Yeah well I was a nuclear power and that's all we dick
29:09 I'll make me feel real comfortable that this is
29:15 rob what was your answer I chose development which you know it's I eat in here just in the comments I pad of all my prostration we we never marcel de marketing for us and we will be it will be pulled at the arch keys it will be told US to other if a customer wants something it paying for it though so it comes in as A I paid for customization that gets prioritize very it we have on our it's our privatisation a screening tool We have an executive override and it's hardly ever use somebody had a good idea over the weekend lot about it I'll their boat and it's it's hardly ever used so most of our problem is we have a product as it has an idea what they want to do An airline liquor before we get everything prioritize them you know and then it becomes the city oH that's sort of the sides but Aidan you'd like a lot of the matter and settled decides the fate of of of what you just prioritize I never get scared about what i Gotta Yeah our waterfall process could be it could be a four hundred day event itself is OH it's oH so you could have really have things that it does take a long time
30:31 edit all because I lab a government body has World Yeah Steve haven't your vote I vote was for executives but it was that pretty much the same point I made before and that is Ah
30:45 I've seen such an incredible focus that comes from executives who are all working from the same hymn book and yet I've encountered in certainly my consulting so many companies where the VP of sales is running his own company and the VP of technology is running his own company and the VP of marketing is like I don't know what you guys are talking about let's make a new brand in our and f everybody's running their own company Nobody is on the same page
31:15 so that's that's where I see the Chaos and an end then I just you know i just trickles down it's like here's the product manager saying I just came from a class with Steve Johnson and he told me that I'm in charge and then you know I went and sold the developers that they just burst out laughing right so AH clarity of roles probably comes from the top why AM I with that makes total sense because they're they have to be by that vision where it's Gonna go so yes Jason Classic Lesson Yes Please I just did without Permission Hey I'm Steve Kroft quick answer for you regarding that I mean I find it empty lot of conversations today Brown who in the organization is doing systems thinking insist on being the organization it was the entire organization so you know what is product marketing you to do defeated a marketing what is development doing a key way In that process what is Dev OPS needs development product management even account be able accounting billing and of course the sales components do is there anybody in an organization we took my roles that really is designed to think about the entire organization as a system or is it really just kind of product management
32:34 I'm going to defer to grant here just second but yes let me let me start by saying product management should in fact be looking at systems thinking and just in terms of systematizing I got ideas we turn them into requirements we empower development we empower marketing we empower sales we look at friction all along the way and look for ways to correct that but it's not as comprehensive What you described so Grant so I've it's a great question Jason actually a question we could do for a topic of the week that's my official comeback this week
33:12 so we're product management right strategy people we tend to look at the world and markets and products right if you look at strategic planning our strategy for a corporation you know what percentage of that is markets and products
33:28 really small
33:30 i'd say half of it but then there's a cost of capital investment you know there's a whole bunch of stuff so we're going to great big orders they designed there are firms out there that do organizational theory and designed to help build the future of work and they're doing systems thinking
33:49 bigger the company the heart of that is you know we we we we hear rob stories some of the best product leaders I've seen
33:57 coming from A Market focused approach outside in look at it and say I'm not going to come here and less you say agree to a market focused approach that starts with product going out in understanding the markets in identifying the strategy and then everything that's upstream right and everything downstream we rubs off of that I just started listening to I think it's Dan heath whose book is upstream so chip and added a whole bunch of books one of the browser think it was Dan just came up with on upstream in it's really that it is systems thinking he was actually talking about that today and what it tells a story about a parable that he was told about public health it is as you say you're at the park by a river in our studies a kid drowning in you dive in to start saving the kid that and other kids done through a friend dropped the sun you keep saying jumping in to save drowning kids and also see your friend running up the river upstream that what you don't we're going Oh I'm going to tackle that guy who keeps throwing kids in the river
35:02 and In a way product management done right is get is that system thing to say about how do we get upstream to make sure we understand the markets and we're proud that privatizing the right things and then we are enabling we talked about it with technology we talked about it with sales and marketing how do we enable them with the right contacts and stuff to help them do what they're doing so big picture here system thinking roles and clarity you should be inability to build that Upstream to downstream bloodstream midstream downstream have actually done that type of thinking with some of my clients about what processes and and artifacts or upstream where does that end the decision point for me is commit right well as soon as you commit on something it moves downstream which is delivering on that any thoughts on that rob is Yeah because we're going through this right now
35:51 I love to talk about clarity a role because it is truly a change our thing so we we could we went to BC Gee we brought in the BC Jury process for all mandate and design seven wrote six roles within our product organization product this product management in this product support We went through an organization that when I got there was about six hundred or six hundred fifty people that's off bit valid for this and we've now rationalize a doubt about four hundred and fifty people so we have ten product but the core portfolio product managers and then there's a hundred product managers in any goes on from there through technical product managers products a poor product Atala slash product owners to take care of the agile nature that which I do allow to them you are you X people and you know from that we built racy which i he I think racing is a useless exercise we put
36:49 an AD out from there we actually started to do A look at the organization because when you go to the roll band aid it's what AM I accountable for where are those shared accountability
37:01 woods and then what all the metrics are Gonna be hell to and Wear Roller Lacrosse is now rolling all that out and actually doing trading through that so two grands point ill when you you know now everybody knows communication is the biggest part of this and now everybody knows I'm responsible for this I need to partner on that and I need to communicate with these other stakeholders and it's not just sales and marketing we get caught up in sales and marketing it's Silver operations it's fight ends it's a billion in voicing folks you know it's all the other people that the dozens of Abigail how racy matrix this is why I hate it cause it just becomes a of overwhelming there's dozens of stakeholders A product manager has the touch and now it's all the and we're going in the process learn actually started the process of rolling that out so we we did two things we went to pick towers Perrin and we brought in their methodology level for every person every four hundred and fifty people in our product organization allow level and that means they're either an individual contributor or their manager and we've gone through these leveling so that we can determine or robs a level The individual contributor P three P six has the highest where your Guru and I were putting a training plan in professional development together we're looking at all the underlying processes in our PD them process that we can understand what we have today from an output from an input and what what are the skill sets that our our product organization needs and leave with that we hired a company called intuition that is actually working with us to actually take all this said integrated into an elements system which we use work day but integrated into an elements system so we can push things out to the product managers I knew I'd never seen a transformation like this it started in our little division you know in a mom and a drawbridge and then the company I and I was talking to steve about this I've never seen an organization where I've never been involved in the organization had an enterprise product man's regroup but we created an enterprise product management group that's really Looking at the period I'm process holistically at the UI you X Library holistically at all these things that we do from a product management process it O M M M metrics standpoint I'm a holistic betas the roll out best practices across the organization so it's lot down in the HR department of iodine in an hour division or the other division is not got in our division it's not luck with Us what it was like collaborating across the organization and I've never seen that before and I and I was up the various and Jason very very skeptical of it but it's working really really well having this enterprise group set up sort of you beef Bobby lockers report right into the CEO in it's sort of the Yeah you get you get you get a ride on the coattails of CEO which means but you got to do it but that also you know look at where we voted for executive executives are though could be the most chaos the product of a process but in a situation where you have it prioritize executive understands and gets it to Jason's question he's pushing says thinking and he's looking at the Enterprise product management group to be that upstream Guide to how to you know the purser the back of the boat who's helping guide the boat guide to understand what do we need to do yes Steve practically drives process can be drawn out process don't drive decisions not we don't know nobody nobody an enterprise product management is having an impact or effect on what gets built no no product manager reports them what they're doing is driving a process that allows us slim yet ripe it but that's that's how you get that clarity right it's clarity and moral clarity process one hundred percent because now everybody has what we call again still talks about the what we call a product managers a product manager everywhere the metrics that we use the data that we're able to provide through throughout your dashboards it's the same on it at anyone about it business uses it is an idea on the cross the organization apples it out you also get the also get something that you never we never had before which is a port puts up a product focused portfolio view of the out of our business which really never existed were it existed impede else at work and I'll tell you how pianos are created on a portfolio level but now you can literally drive We can because we spent we did we did it we delegated transformation so we can literally drive from a product the visit from a from broad words to a division to approach to a business unit or product by law to a product to an extension all the way down to the billing item and two who bought it and look across our entire portfolio tapes or J P Morgan you know buys all this from Us so he'll just be able to create that clarity at the end it wouldn't gotten done it was done at a at a divisional level it needed that good to achieve that he needed that has either group now to be able to meet sponsor perfect flight needed a seal the seal how to do it at no cost i I work with a really big company in the fin tech space and they had a CEO who who was they had a product solution management group right who met and how try to drive standards and as soon as that Clo left The person who took over was a sales focused person in all of sudden get rid of all the investment that though having the C E O's good at that it also comes down the importance of executive so we're going to move to our questions has been a really good deep dive on clarity and how it impacts chaos but let's talk about you know it sort of falls in line with that right so rob's talking here about the importance of process and in in clarity in Steve I'm going to go to you on this one first because you started answering this question earlier right where you talked about long ago was that Keith Eric Kevin the sales Guy kevin the sales Guy Yeah Yeah how much chaos is created by the lack of process versus lack of hearing Well Yeah you don't in My Consulting work I am truly amazed at the number of people who either have no process at all or they've got this it's this convoluted process that is that
43:25 I incomprehensible certainly know my cabin story was you know here's a guy who routinely bypasses existing process but most of all I think the majority of companies have spent a lot of money on procedural lies in development you know we've got dev OPS now we know we've got daily builds we've got check and check out I mean They've really optimize the building and and grant you said this earlier now they're finding that we know how to build product we don't know what product to build and all a lot of internal I T folks are coming to me and saying you know hey we need to adopt product management even an internal I T because products never die I mean if you hear you build something there's always enhanced request even if you install a third party product it it the the project never dies and so a lot of companies are embracing that product management thing but then they say OK well what's the proper management process in and I show them you know that what typically happens is people say well let's build this perfect process you know where everyone is a good actor and information is is comprehensive and nobody breaks the rules and it's convoluted and ridiculous and Like grounded in democracy you know everybody gets a vote
44:58 near a mew
45:00 is that from Lake Wobegon
45:03 have it for everyone all everyone's kids are above average so anyway in my work what I'm seeing is an absolute lack of processed
45:15 tomes that was long Answer to get to a definitive point I'm Gonna I'm Gonna Bypass rob because he does talk the whole bunch about the importance of process in there and the the front stage of Rome those things out Jason talk to me about adherents of process OH
45:32 i like Ross as as an outline because it gives you something to go back to when you get kind of lost in the woods but I do not like it as a replacement for kind of intelligence and so good point Yeah I mean at some point there is you can't you can't A I your way out of product management in another is a bit of gut is a bit of intuition and a lot of those things are not gonna be outlined in sight of process and and so the bill nicely that's Gonna You're Gonna stay with somebody of the outside a bell curve areas is like you know how we handle those kind of opponent and that is the art of the product manager is rattling you can't just create a robot of product managers who all have the same capability to do the same thing I completely agree that it's a court baseline we can't be too prescriptive on step one step two step three step three A's to three beast has the right A M outcomes right manage them on the outcomes rates so artifacts and we're getting to how people get to them now we may be able to dig in after the fact to see the quality their effect say okay wait did you do you're market engagement visit Do you Validate this type of stuff but you can yeah you Gotta give em Yeah Here's what we're looking for here's the outcome but the process the part that the outcome in the process right but give them the freedom to apply some of own capabilities to that yet rob a really great sort of Yoga ago I would say is a long process and I I think process becomes your gait your day to day manager Because you can't manage people the the process what managers wear right when I was in consulting like it's opulent where a tendency problems is when it's inconsistencies two thin inconsistency in the process It is a nobody really knew what they were doing an ambassador invasion of the process management just just didn't hear it here to what they what they put in place and they bastardized it for their own their own benefit and and that creates a can see them in a pile in the process falls apart is a
47:42 it I'll go back to upstream in the stuff from dan he's in it he was talking about how if you manage most of our systems manage the reactive nature right you can measure how many tickets a cop gives right which is the reactive if they don't measure how many acts as a cop being paying attention to stops right and so you need to make sure you're you're looking at the outcome not the activity at times When you do that the baking so aren't let's move to the next question a little put this one to rob what is the best approach to getting out of the chaos
48:20 process Across
48:25 a what is well I think recognizing that those casks ride an end and measuring what the impacts are some of the chaos is emotional on measurable and some of it is real and measurable edit that are causing delays and you can quantify that that problem
48:45 I'll be honest I Lip I get I'll say I love process I love I well there's nothing better than a good workflow and again it's not good not to create so many guard rails on everything or nothing that could keep guard rails to the plane when I teach i don't i don't we get to the final in the mid term which Is for me it is all about presentation and abby the students get up and and president I don't say to them here's what I'm looking for you go explore and be creative I say here the questions I'd like you to answer guess what I want to see on page one two three and four and I've always done that even with my life product management teams I've always done that the more you can create consistency in your message the more you can create
49:31 you know and ask and answer kind of thing Because remember that the product manager doesn't know how to present any person who's supposed to listen to that presentation to make a decision doesn't know what to do what they need to listen for in order to make a decision and out and so do can bring us to the getting create Better communication through process
49:52 I just think it it you know a bit it's predictive creating predictability and the more you got removed you know unpredictable Ah behaviors and and things are better off the bluff cats you Gotta have the I ig and actually ran outside and of Dylan's deals with a client right now the first thing we're doing is actually it's based lining the existing process and outcomes so Start with the baseline of what how is that happening now formally and informally in in one of the results and then from that you can then manic you can build to the ideal for them because everybody's every company is different than any other company right you can identify where that at least the easiest move is going to be and start managing the change to go from how it's done now keep the things that people feel work and and and do but then moved to add to it so you could bring more value to it steve your thoughts
50:45 Well I hired agreed with Robin on on process but I'll take it a step further I've always believed in play Bucks
50:54 doubt It's I I some people say it with scorn you know it's like you know This person can only fill out a template or that's paint by numbers but let's start with paint by numbers you know you're you you you do end up with a picture of a house with a horsey next door if you've got you know a playbook and I can't tell you the times I've I've encountered people who say I've been well I've been brought on board this company has no process and I'm scrambling you know does anybody have a template like this
51:30 and that's some of what we're trying to address with their the courts open framework is to say you know here's a framework here's a set of standardized templates that you can use and modify
51:41 by
51:44 Well Francis I were a client I worked with this week they loved my product canvas you know and it's not like it's rocket surgery as kevin the sales guy used to say
51:57 it's just a simple form and yet it's everything in one place and it gives you a starting place so Yeah I'm big on play bucks why it and I mean look at how much strategizing or in in in the product
52:12 The business model business model came in via Prague campuses have helped with the chaos of innovation those types of things and rob yes that's a whole new topic that I will want to go on with you own one of these calls just because that time Jason I'm not going to give you a chance on this one and let's just as you have you established agree with steve yes there's a discipline of the process is key to successful crosses yes we could say Good say what you're Gonna get it she to start because I am going left to right my left to right and Jason is to my left for our rapid fire
52:51 question Fences up what is your first piece of advice to a product manager dealing with chaos somebody's in Chaos is dealing with chaos what's your first thing that you advice for them take a step back from your day to day and observe where the Chaos is happening the source of the Kids
53:10 Awesome Rob Yeah I was Gonna say something similarly which was hobby first need to recognize that it is chaotic and take a step back in and try to understand it
53:23 steve
53:27 well remove the log from your own eye before you complain about the mote in another
53:35 you know make sure years and I say that's from the Bible Yeah you could braley was misquoted so I'll have to now look it up but actually I was thinking that was like a version of that where hold the cup in the in the left hand so you're reading it opinions other interesting relevant I thought that was the Yeah well all I was trying to say was look to yourself first I mean i I see people walk into a company and say oh everyone here is broken you're like okay of it's first have you done your job now but I'm inclined to agree with Robby Robin and Jason now I'm Gonna Ditto that as well I see our users whole great experience I'm ever teaching my son how to catch a fly ball when he was in Little league and the biggest problem they have is they always start running right it right and if you run right into chaos the is going to fly over your head and so it's take a step back see the forest for the trees zoom out and and try to figure it out I'll be honest it's not just Chaos I mean as somebody who works with executives are being more strategic it's it's amazing how often they are in the reactive mode of of saving drowning kids and not thinking about wire there all these kids drowning right hardly goes how do we Gonna first put out the fire and and figure out what's causing the fires yeah and so with that said
54:59 Rob Jason Steve as always it's a pleasure to have this conversation with you guys each week and other people who as they come
55:07 monday that question gets posted Wednesday we got a pool right I we have is unbelievably wonderful and fun conversation so thank you guys very much

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