Product Management Professional Development

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TOTW - Product Management Professional Development
0:01 Welcome back to a new product growth leaders topic of the week this week what we're really talking about is product management professional development Ah we got a great pants today Jason Johns thieves like you Guys for joining us and we're going to dive right into start talking about and I'm going to make the sly bigger make me go away just for a little bit
0:26 so I can figure out how to do that here we go
0:29 What was your most valuable product manager professional development experience this is what we started the week with
0:36 and the question why is it in Jason he yeah after A rough spot there for a while Jason's back and getting in their first thing and he came out with pragmatic marketing certification he was new to product management leadership in the course kicked off his understanding of the role in a software company now what we did some follow up questions who was that teacher who Jason
0:59 believe bubbly or her room is Steve Johnson
1:04 and Johnson I've heard he's Pretty guide the I heard where was this Earth given Jason
1:10 Did I take the class has to answer the question figure was in Boston know how to use eater in like raleigh or possibly even in like DC Area Yeah there was a decade there were I was doing Boston every month in raleigh every other month in
1:29 D the DC area like every three months fear and it was pretty why I thing but could you teach and honesty i did occasionally but AH after a while we hired a guy in Atlanta Georgia Trail so he typically did training down there so it was it I think for all of Us it loose on this call pragmatic marketing was A Monumental point whether it's becoming the first outside instructor and the person to lead the yoga lead instructor and developer of that of the slide deck that all of us had two thousand eight when you guys took a two thousand and ten when I took it
2:06 There's No Brainer that it was impractical product management now requirements that work you know
2:13 it was a great course for US I mean I've you don't let's see if I can keep doing good with this do the second answer we got was from John First row primary job was very eye opening in Impactful learning what product management actually was had not heard of it before part of that was taking pragmatic marketing both you guys took it in two thousand eight out out I found that interesting or both of you have memories from two thousand and eight Air was used as a sub header but I didn't ah number other product manager taken the had the place mat oh that's a typo should say place mats not placement on the
2:45 stupid auto correct Yeah it's placement John if I remember correctly you have a
2:52 background in mechanical engineering right now was I was a computer engineer turned management major heart attack
3:00 I guess the point was your Georgia tech out of thought that computer edgy your present at Georgia Tech would have been I would have known product management I don't think it's harmless quite as popular when I was attacked back in the early nineties so I guess it's true the late nineties was when it started coming around there but what at least I learned about it
3:20 and you know Steve let's talk about you know in for Me I actually learned pragmatic marketing through the framework through the entire anybody who took pragmatic marketing got the thirty seven box framework
3:37 I've you know talk to me steve about how that became a viral thing to help with product management professional development I mean it seemed like that was a lead thing that people talked about and it got more people interested in if we're talking about the history of product professional development
3:55 you're talking about The place mat right Yeah framework
3:58 my recollection of the story
4:02 is Ah Crag stall was my boss at well at at a company and
4:11 he and well now I do know the way I was working with a guy named Jim Butler who was a technical super technical guy he used to be a developer I used to be in sales and we were Gonna step on each other and what was really happening was the sales were going to one of US not getting the answer they light and going to the other of Us to see if that he get a better answer so
4:37 we had A Meeting with Crag and and he said well let's write down everything you're supposed to be doing
4:44 and we came up with thirty seven thanks and jim was more technical so he took the technical thing and I was more sales and marketing so I took the marketing things and we finished this being a prototype of what's now the framework and cregg shared it with some others in the executive ranks and it went viral within the company I mean everybody's going crazy over this thing because they've never had one crisp definition of the scope of of the job and
5:16 then he then he said you know This is Super popular within this company I'm Gonna Wonder if it's popular in other companies and so he shared it was more more and more people and finally said you I think there's a business here finished arguing public's right and so the first thing he did was he Started doing public seminars here in DC where he lived at the time and I was there at the first session that took the day off from work and came and sat the back room took notes and a bunch of flat I think we had twelve people maybe in the first session and it was it was pretty stellar and couple years goes by and he says you know dude I make an eleven you should come join me full time so that's how i came to be part of pragmatic I remember craig telling the story about them laminating the The place mats in their house until it got to the point where they're doing another decided to make a bulk purchase but outside now thirty seven activities is the magic number yeah no matter how it changes size with our exactly exactly exactly but you know what was really interesting as we have a sit down with a professional marketer you know we were doing some i guess we were planning their first brochure and the marketer goes well in Ottawa don't ever show anybody this chart Because that's the secret sauce that's the magic you should be given that shit away and I'm like now I completely disagree this is the thing that will drive people to the training class and sure enough I was right so we put it is Anna A fault in the brochure and emphasized it in everything we did and everywhere we went we gave him out I mean even before I was part of Pragmatic I had a stack of those cards that I would hand out to anybody Schneider when I was at I just the first time a new pragmatic marketing my head of marketing I was a director of product that he was a director of marketing we added a senior vice president who didn't came from pepsi co like didn't know software or be to be and he brought me that thing and he said let's just look at this I'm Gonna give a circle on the right side and her nest oH that's what I do and I'm Gonna Circle the left side town so that's what you do are you okay with that and then I started reading the magazine and it's of took off from there Ah
7:36 so John Tax Us we all stop talking to see what John
7:41 is saying that thinks the you need that cozy warm living room fireplace background at hour ago we were airing erica that so let's get back to I could put fire on My TV and then turn so you could see the TV editor way over their
8:00 heads right that said something like editing out later on The third answer a matter from another division is actually from a gland produce a first time I think he's respond to the money question and actually I took pragmatic marketing with them when I finally took it at the same company I don't think he's talking about meta though mentor from another division who befriended me they were Objective and allowed me to see the proper boundaries three other teams would sometimes gets kind of blurry large company so understanding that role right where the boundaries are how hand stuff out really really important thing to do let's get to the second page aus open that
8:34 Robert Gregg would be on here today with Us ah mighty and my answer was here when I took it in becoming an instructor there are valuable experience as I had a great mentor sort of resonating those do for those first three but it was actually having a project where I implemented that actually made it made sense to me right we I was doing a around and I started going and talking to customers in listening to them and I end up building a strategy based on how the markets had changed or they involved in that you know I was doing market focused product manager before even having the title I was a director of marketing at the time so for me it starts getting into the application of it
9:13 Greg Fenton is worth was the next answer I was thrown into the as the head of systems architecture software integration for complex navy system and basically this is interesting because What he's talking about what he did with the Navy and the system makes me think about how product managers becoming more viable in project based companies the internal project I teams building stuff because that's what he was dealing with stakeholders you're dealing with budgets internally In selling things to get to understand the needs to get them done Ah but he also believes that moving into product management with soaring with a one a one not attend ten got I did it earlier this morning I shall have a coffee first
9:53 that was a key way to go I'd like to use is just as a chance right now to
10:00 show myself again Ah Steve let's talk about product management in in I T system and how You're sick we're seeing more and more of them embrace the concept of product management how product development could be key for that
10:14 Yeah I'd say over the last ten years but certainly very much over the last two I've got more and more requests from people who say you know where we've come to realize two things one is we finally got agile working and we realize we can now build the wrong thing faster than ever
10:34 and so now we're ready to go upstream you know we we really need to make sure that we're building the right thing that's one aspect and the other is they've come to realize that projects never end I mean even something simple like We're implementing Marquette out were implementing salesforce okay there's no end of that you don't say okay fine it's installed walk away because as soon as you get it implemented there's a hash request there's new eight there's all sorts of change you have to make and just like in product management there's ten times as many more requests than there are resources so we need somebody to do those things that you would expect us to do you know have a vision for what we're trying to accomplish a prioritization scheme to make sure we're working on the most important things just because one sales guy asked for a feature doesn't make it a good idea unless it affects all Customers are all users so it actually goes way back the first time I really went down this path is I was doing a training for the Mormon Church the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and It was in Salt Lake City and I had a great time but beforehand I called him I'm like you know are are we Gonna be okay here I mean I'm going to be talked about running this like a business and they're like oh he help her on board with that Super group of people has such a great time and I'm like I don't know some of the stuff applies to you in a like do you need a launch plan and they're like absolutely need a launch plan you know we're introducing new things we need all of the wards and tit to Embrace them and understand how to get bomb and it was just fascinating to me in for in for my first experience working with the central I T if you're well that they were already a decade ago maybe even fifteen years ago thinking of Product rather than project management
12:32 John I'd like to go to you I I would I don't know this is me asking you discover question in your time with leading agile did you Guys
12:41 have When you were consulting room consulting with professional with all products teams in a product organization or did you work some with
12:51 ITP departments at that we're doing Agile I needed to figure out product manager It was a little more the ladder
12:59 or product groups that exists within those ita organizations as part of a broader transformation
13:06 how how did you say that transmission happening
13:09 Yes what US was how did you see that's how did you help them with that transformation how do you help them develop into better
13:17 got it yeah so to steve's point at the beginning they're about they're just doing wrong things faster with agile all elements part of the transformation
13:28 we came in and created a series of frameworks
13:33 and trainings and things like that to sort of help Product organizations slot into Agile Development organizations Ah there's a lot of mindset shift change management that has to happen Eriksson again like like some other words you can start another project focused
13:54 There is literally like creative team for a period of time for a project and a nutty will dissolve after the project was our heroic that's actually never been happening in here in a cricket teams around capabilities or lines of business or something and they're Gonna continue to work on those things basically forever and can others that sort of organizational shift that happens in the nose of all mindset shift because again people will get budget for a project that has yet to change lay even money flows in an exit Organization you start making Yeah and you know it also really invites everybody to think oh yeah these resources are not fungible it just a just drives me insane people go oh let's take a developer or product manager or whatever from this thing and put him on that thing and there's no need for domain knowledge or you know historical anything and we're not making widgets here Yeah right so it just is I continue less and less but I do continue running into people who say they're constantly shifting their product teams Moving prime managers around adding and removing developers from teams and I'm like every time you do that you're you're completely stopping the team from getting anything done and unlike owner know we have a them to be true I'm like oh I'll go talk to your developers and you'll find that actually is trent's stop doing that and see if it doesn't get better dry dime exactly Jason I wouldn't go to this last line from from Greg moving into product leadership anyone brand new to product management I have taken a product management course starting with a one one not attend to give them drowning from where they can go to teach you talked about how for you you came into a product leadership role in you used to give yourself that grouting as you bring new product mentors or honor you see new people come what's the recommendations you give is is that the sort of the same standard Yeah so those two things are really depends on budgets I've boys worked for a smaller organization said for some reason or another are not a huge fan of formal training um so you not very minimum there Is Couple was actually like a book analyst very kind of simplify but it's done it's product management for dummies Yeah it's really nice because it in in a very easy to understand know siri Reddit gold you know mumbo Jumbo and algorithms it's really kind of digital product management this is the role this is what a do at least get everybody that comes in due to an organization part of management product owners to read that book or advocate as utility In then Ah Yeah of course you know the fight for them to get more formal training it's just it's it's it could be a bit of an upward battle arms because a Lotta times a HR training departments say just don't understand The sole benefit of this training I'm not sure why I think they prefer maybe more around I T's entertaining for like eight of the training or something that maybe death knell has procession a more tangible results but OH but you have Jeffrey pfeiffer late for training programs I want definite recommend that I have done that before and it was able but at the very least some sort of product management on outdo you know inspired or something like that not only that just gives an overall view how about music team should be organized in order to be most efficient and the most important piece by piece talk about earlier dining and steve is prioritization so in echoes with product manager is thrown into the Yo you know the requests are coming in a minute be very daunting if they don't know how to gamble and prioritize those in surgery I skills and actually our skills I'd I'd done a team game to kind of keep up keep that kind of symbol based on the organizations I've I were I was in so getting them to appreciate how to do basic prioritization of those things here that we where to talk a little bit more about sort of the divide with HR Development and in some of your questions but it's it's it's regarded custom was delay Yeah so did to build an omelette at the end of that quote and then which chase was talking about when I First time I was tasked with creating product management company once I found my humans are we went through the pragmatic marketing class and twenty eleven yeah together to give them some kind of a framework a wales a shared vocabulary and way of thinking about it together as a team and it was easier to get approval for even a relatively small company Ah because there was a an alleged certification at the end
18:38 like this ten stamp of approval as opposed to justify paying for you to be classes are copyright Yeah now we we we with I we got like paper Stephen I've been working on of I shared with either of you guys yet would start to share with a couple people In one of the things we found our research was that a lot of training classes are purely for the certification it's it's not that people are worrying about even adding the skills their portfolio they're just trying to check that that Mark I get that shield or get the CP ease of it though is where the pressures it has as those types of things when a crazy idea at and pragmatic marketing then Scram alliance and amber the safe stuff
19:17 In all cases you go to the class and get a class you get certification like there's never I guess it's safe you have to take a test months but I was at him and asked last
19:25 our testing had unlimited past twenty five was actions in Manhattan Yeah also you eleven eleven we are going to take the test of my team actually no issues here one out now they got five or six tests for each class yeah they have a test for each class I think that gives it a slightly more
19:44 Rabbit US and keeps you engaged if you know there's a reason yet attention all because you the district get the answer now that's good good good good I think about it I The final page of this was actually from Rob Goldberg when he made his transition from wall street the product and I was hoping to be on here so I can make fun of why would you leave wall street going to product but
20:08 especially in the late eighties The I work with really strong private people up front tires to pat himself ah didn't know anything about product they helped to take his analytical skills to apply them in then his transfer budget transformation came at Duracell worried had some great really great coaching and mentoring that he actually went on to teach that has see one do one teach one as a great process it I actually like there were some follow up a conversation with Greg and I have this one Maybe when the topics we need to do is product management for software versus product management management for consumer or other hard goods in the differences because you know
20:45 I I see Rob and I think he works at a big software company in his start was at a battery company and a tire company in product management so you know some some of those skills which are going to transfer regardless of your your form factor medium in what you what you're doing a those interesting and and hit his quote may be really think about the but we used to attribute to ben Franklin I did I did my research as I always do to find sourcing and it it's more of a chinese prob proverb tell tell me and I will forget show me and I will remember involve me and I will understand that in through each of the stuff we talked about to me it seems like that's a key thing that the more we can get people engaged learn from a project have a mentor engage people and work on applying if that's going to be a key part of what's going on see what it what is you what's your take
21:35 well you know I I I I have a strong software background of course I mean my whole career and as I'm doing course where development now I I do find myself sliding so easily into referring to developers or in a referring to software and yet one AM I bET one of my favorite projects over the last five years is working with a life sciences company and
22:04 they don't have software I mean you know everything we talked about I'm like I've got this applies here and they're like oh Yeah I totally does that mean yeah we have customers we have requirements and we tell stories and we have problems that we're trying to solve and you know just the whole language of it applied to a non software business and yet even even as I you know talk about it I'm always you I'M skewing towards software in the way I talk about things so it's almost like we can go through my course where again with a different instructor who had of you know hardgoods background and they could use the same slides they would just tell different stories
22:43 know lineman In some of the stuff hive do with smaller companies through this my speaking of this stuff is taking pure product management concepts and making them relevant to a CEO owner of a ten million dollar business I can't over I did a gig with A A really cool company called layered they make remote controls for trains
23:05 so imagine you know you're trying to put together a train you got cars all over the train yard In the old days You'd have to run over to these various trains now you stand up in a tower with a remote control and you just move the engines around and fetch the cars that you need and I my business so goal is something every every little girl's dream Yeah right right and yet you know there are all sorts of interesting stories in there like
23:34 Ah if you drop the remote or if you fall down all brakes on all things lock because you don't want a car just wandering through the train yard you know and and yet in the end it always fascinating discussion but in the end it was like hey wait this the same thing is still profound as an problems You know whatever and I was doing a session with their leadership and afterward the head of HR came over and said could you give the same speech to my HR team and I'm like why what are you people Do I mean I thought all HR did was cut our benefits every year and protect the executives from sexual harassment suits and she said well yeah we do that but we also do some other things and so I ended up speaking with the HR team and they were like you know why we have the same things right we have percenters that were serving our employees and our communities and you know it was just fascinating that the language of what I think of is the language of software product management is really just the language of I don't know management we are solving problems and in solutions I mean I I std you know I've in my work with HR executives in in my previous job but I've i sat in meetings and like wait they're talking about agile they're talking about requirements are talking about segmentation it it really it really resonated with me so with that let's get to our poll and let me make this fall and hide myself for a second so the poll on whether if you had the budget to invest in a product made with fresh development for a team of five to ten where would you spend that money in live product management training got two votes and hands on workshop got four votes we don't get any votes for on demand Primary training coaching other and share I'm Gonna Get my Vote shown appeared Jason where did you vote
25:24 I vote and hands on workshops okay why why why hands on workshop I saw you voted An enzyme works you can't see where I voted when you vote okay so because the Guy ah Yeah so
25:40 AM I had experience on both Gonna training and no I think that the way but we propaganda has been most effective in when I've been here doing training or been part of the training with my groups ASs band you know working through real problems that we're having list placed and I'm trying to be prioritization with real problems and just kind of getting hands on Siri end up gives you an idea a retrospective because where you fail is really where you do the most learning and just not Gonna get that experience system know a lecture worse or or something like that yeah actually have to get hands on in order to nuts show where you're doing some missteps in a tuber ICu I completely agree obviously obvious vote for this one as well for Me I actually think i learned more about Product management and even pragmatic marketing when I was helping people as a consultant implemented and you see so many different shades of ways in it's going to be different for everybody but once you get people working on it It opens your eyes and it starts making it real not just something that's on the side that somebody talks about a complete see one do one teach one yeah
26:51 there are the other with a Chinese proverb right tell me when i forget Show Me and I Remember Involve Me I learn by John which did you vote unless this one actually didn't because I was so torn Aorta America a page of your
27:07 it's fairly you know the ambiguity got me laid I would I was waffling the few hands on workshop and coaching and because essentially the coaching is the onsite version of the hands on workshop to me like have that's people coming in watching you do the real thing helping adjust the way you do the real thing so you get back Same at doing the learning kind of a thing yeah
27:32 but I guess if some of it probably depends on this the maturity the organization and other the individuals are targeting doctor
27:39 Yeah Gregg it talked about the teaching people to fish in I remember the first time as a product leader where I had a product manager who I was at that crossroads where I could either catch the balls he was dropping and do it for him or I could teach him how to do it Do it properly and I'm so Glad I made the second show right because when you start becoming a product later it's hard to scale if you're catching your team's balls and this app and a beam in a financial Building pro Forma Es Nat type of stuff and doing projections for the for a three year business plan but once you could teach some of those things it's owe it to your point the other coaching and hands on workshops have a lot of and there's a dovetail their name in in the value you're getting In higher Gonna do that because you could argue that my coaching for him was a hands on workshop because I was teaching him how to do right of it a you know a three year pro forma and build and build the assumptions for that I think when it like here Look at no you go ahead and add it to my earlier story about that company recreate private management like I would probably start with live product minute train just to get a baseline yeah in Israel evolve moved hands on workshops in got a coaching for the continuous birthday too I I completely and totally agree AH steve where did you vote
29:02 did you vote I think I voted for hands on but you know Yeah I agree with what John just Sad and and ended it really has to do with with two factors i mean that it it their scale and there's bears
29:18 implementation
29:21 I mean if if you're trying to get a lot of people up to speed quickly you can communicate a lot of data in a six hour class for forty people you but if you want to try and you know actually apply it then you need like one instructor and maybe ten people who are working in two cohorts or something and once you get into more advanced levels is like now I need or I need to have a one on one conversation with an expert
29:52 and you know it's kind of like what you really want for your kids is a tutor
29:59 but you can't afford it right I mean school is costing you ten thousand dollars a year in taxes A tutors gonna cost you a hundred forty thousand dollars a year so you know it's it's that's the ballots running but that means the kids would actually have to listen to the tutor also might get hurt right right and so you know that's why
30:21 I think the Johns Right I mean it's it's a combination of things but Yeah I'd I think you don't want you don't necessarily need one on one coaching to the Freshman class
30:34 it's when you get into in a more advanced application and in particular you know if you're doing like a team building thing where you're bring in a whole bunch of people together half the people don't really want to be there and so they're just Gonna listen to you talk while they do email
30:48 but The more you get into the application the more
30:53 handholding maybe you native and then when you get into advanced as I'm working with a team right now that's meant and I I posted about this on the community They're they're embarking on a fairly massive conversion from one platform to another and the and almost all of their customers are in a renewal state so I'm like wait you're changing the platform during Their renewal time at Yeah there's a lot of opportunity for failure hair and so this is a this is a one on one consulting thing this is not a generic sort of you know hey let's talk about migration strategy because it's you can you can approach that problem generically
31:34 John that was a lot naughty own answer you Brian
31:39 Steve we come it would become accustomed to those
31:43 In a live product management got two votes I don't know who voted for those but one thing I throw out there just as an idea
31:51 isn't saving solving the same problem right I've certification is not a professional development problem replication is a you know people want to say they've checked the box is not about but building the skills right team building bringing my team together for something That's a motivational a team building problem you're solving not a product main profession developments you may be trying to kill two birds with one stone but I think there are different problems you're trying to solve and sometimes different different mediums are going to solve different problems so after spending a long time doing lecture style training Ah I would never do that anymore i mean if I've Gotta even if I got forty people In a in a get together a team building whatever you know I'm Gonna spend fifteen or twenty minutes setting up a scenario and then give them thirty to forty minutes to apply that I mean so Yeah even a a lecture style set up can be calm hands on workshop land that's been successful for me except in one case
33:03 ah in the after action report report I I I chatted with the VP the buyer and she said well you know there was an awful lot of lolly gagging around you know we could have done a whole lot more content and I'm like you know so clearly her perception was that you know if we had done a lecture recover could have color cover twice as much but you would have learned twice as much him in the head can only hold so much yeah exactly will let the thought about that learning in that transferring the knowledge into Buddha
33:36 hide myself here for a socket make this
33:40 full so for the paper Stephen I've been Riding we we did some research and from a harvard business review article found the statistic they just blew us away only twelve percent of employees apply new skills learned in a training program to their jobs
33:56 get one in ten do you think this applies the product manager from your experience what you seen it then I would say that all of us on this call are probably those one in ten because you know where where where success we made it but from you know it looking at teams do you think this applies to private management and if so how do we fix that how do we get product men do do a better job than than the rest of the organization when it comes to professional development Jason you have to take so I only see their home but you know i just think Obama bowed my own training or this all started and it goes back to something Steve separate itself you did great again sorry so easily know basically the same list were going over lot of topics here you have been successful to your organization if you take one or two of these topics away and do something with it and so adding that has stuck with me forever and I was aH teaching actually teach at the same school as UM has rob he teaches in Boston but I in the Chesapeake yes and also as an instructor that's kind of what I would tell my students the same thing I was teaching Gonna Am I ask management information systems in and database reports and such will say hey listen if you got just take one thing away is I think that you you can overwhelm a lot of people with a lotta content through training but if at the end of the day you're saying it focused if you do one thing just go ahead and do something go back to your office implement one thing instead of say well there's a lot there's all kinds of things I need to do and you get overwhelmed and you go back into what you're doing before the train of anything not doing focus you can now probably improve those numbers are quite a bit you should eat we need to give you a slide out from city slickers A guy jack pounds doing the one thing you can use that for that speech I think that we don't agree it's a
35:53 big job your thoughts YEs I think back to Miami different every night The three different journey things over the different years even like with the pragmatic thing
36:06 I didn't do all the thirty seven bucks saying there it was interesting framework to hang things on I'm a big any the companies even one rhetoric whole team through that the methodology wouldn't like do it so it could be argued we're part of their eighty eight percent it didn't apply the new skills it's kind of pet on how you
36:28 Count bad at all that's actually a great framing of it because if you take let's do some quick math if you take three or four of those boxes and apply them you could argue that we learn thirty seven boxes we only applied for on that while percent right Yeah
36:46 well I don't think minutes with that status I'm not gonna be got but I mean leave it seems it does seem that you know when you go through a in any good training class You're going to walk away with something hey hopefully one or two things per day but you know you came back and develop your user and buyer persona you know that's it went right you came away with prioritization method perhaps know that's a win and when I was designing courses for pragmatic and now for for myself i always looked at everything from the standpoint of there needs to be wine
37:22 mind blowing thing in this in this exaction in other can be some stories and there can be some slides in there can be some foundations and there can be some definitions but there needs to be one thing for perked up for any yet one one thing that you've never heard of anywhere else before
37:44 if you can't learn how to apply it and i've tried to do that I'd i'd design courses yeah the AH cause these these these think that that will encourage people That's a great new Idea I never thought that let me implement that now
37:56 I think the key is to find a way to connect the content to something they can literally do yeah right because if you don't start using it it's just an academic exercise the two exactly are you Gonna get a training in California and there was a guy an older guy and he and I had bonded pretty well I mean we're both old and nerds and we remember you know we were actually told to mainframe stories to one another it was all quite exciting and at the end unto him my big wrap up my big rally he knows like hey go out and change the world you are somebody you know all that stuff he sits there with his aRMs crossed the whole time and then he said you know you tell some good stories but you know i can't do any of us and like you can't do any of this any and in I actually like to think of the way I teach is largely
38:54 civil disobedience eat out a lot of the things that I teach are things you can do without permission and encourage you to do without even getting permission There's nothing that prevents you from going over and talk to customer support about the top three things they hear all the time you know there are a number of things you can do without permission but he's like if my management is non board i can't do any of this and I'm just like really I mean you wanna be that feed it you know and we've been in this class for two days and he's just been sit there the whole time gone Yeah can't do that here but somebody's Gonna Stop Me from doing that and like wow you know take control man is like a happy ending
39:34 Well Yes I suppose there as I I then reiterated here are some of the things that you can do without permission blocking Tuesday and Thursday morning so you don't have any recurring meetings you know
39:47 engaging with people inside the building even if you can't engage with people outside the building in I ticked off a bunch of thanks and he and I first he was reluctant but then he said oh you know I'm a lotta those things are things I can do but there have certainly have been times when I have said things in class and somebody in the room says tis my boss know what you're saying to US now yeah a mob at but I think there's also something in a two day lecturer it's Gonna be harder for people see how they get implemented because you're not implementing it they're not applying it right we've talked often about the hands on workshop the coaching they get it done it I've talked before about grassroots strategy great book that I read last year I think Steve I got that for you and the other way I know them is the two authors partnered with my business school marketing professor to build a strategic marketing program for honeywell and they called it Edu salting which I thought was a terrible the eye but what they did was they did a full week in full project teams will come in so it's like a it's like a you know a project team that's working on active deo deem bed or something like that for honeywell were a project for something else they come in and they teach EM segmentation and then they would break in and have a consultant with each team and they would actually take what they learned they apply and it was go for five days film Co to Itza was all teach apply teach apply to a relevant thing with a team of people are doing it phil day the former chairman CEO of Honeywell said that the programs went through that created a hundred eighty million dollars of operating income a year and that doesn't count the money they saved by killing killing thinks
41:31 it's cold so to me that's what that's how you have to do it you have to teach apply teach plan that's certainly the approach that I've tried to take yes I completely agree now one of the issues we've had is with that learning up to take this another issue I've had a lemming I myself and we can see it from the research Stephen I did we found the no formality or alignment around product manufactured development most teams aren't work most product made with aren't working with HR they're not working with uptown development organizations most teams don't have set budgets most teams product teams don't have set rotations and and this supply is Johnny Gonna want to get your take on Google Chrome or Google does a very good job with rotations for product man with people moving them around but most companies Most experts say most non Silicon valley companies don't invest a lot in product management professional realm they don't have you know there's somebody in sales knows what they're tracking somebody in sales support or marketing there's there's past What with where they're Gonna go and I give them the training they move them they're fine hour things we did not see that from what we saw an AD HOC want one off type thing how can product leaders make product management improvement versus developing a strategic organizational priority everybody talks about us being whether it's a C E O or the orchestra conductor or the the fulcrum leverage point whatever it is product management makes decisions on where we focus in private management enables all the functions the organizations to deliver how do we go about making product management in pregnant infected on a strategic organizational priority I'd like just to get your thoughts I know you've been it advocating for this in your company
43:18 Yeah so I think it's identifying
43:21 you know opportunities their own
43:26 i guess the economic problems kind thing right prime minister It is a sacred things or other problems associated with the current structure where you don't create a dream state like what can what could happen with better training and professional development and you have to just make that pitch at your age are in the executive teams and see you know where their you know what they value and canada just at around it stuff it shouldn't be too hard and with product management to determine Rookie but the executives value how to product management improves in order to bring more value to that you know to to the more meat on those bones because it can in you know maybe it is a more extreme and maybe it's more in the downstream side of more tactical uses a product ownership if you will It really just depends per organization but I think you just have to get it to determine what those problems are and what the executive seal is a need for example in my previous organization my CEO just thought you know we weren't efficient right now the teams was inefficient wasn't everyone doing the right things they just thought they were as efficient as it could be with driving the development team so that might be something where you can make a case for better development within product owners Something a little more tactical versus the strategic points so you just have a mere get what our readers from your second attempt to make the case
44:50 it's it is it is it that you think about another we we talked about earlier talked earlier how much money they but we spend on agile training and Scram training and how much money we spend on sales training it's like you know a marketing ploy doesn't get as much training but accountants are always doing continuing education legal zone contending education Sales has tons of money going into coaching in sales training and sales kick OFFS development has their actual training and other training in they're always doing scale training at how idiom part of this is maybe getting that strategic aspect was say hey product management These them to get that same type of focus in and development I wonder if the problem is a marketing problem I mean you've got hundreds or thousands of organizations promoting the fact that your developers are broken and they need to become agile
45:43 you've got thousands of sales training organizations promoting your salespeople are broken they need to have Span arse the
45:54 customer centric or solution or you know a myriad methods Ah
46:01 I don't remember ever getting any marketing training
46:06 or for that matter product management training
46:09 and I don't know does development do any sort of skills training I mean do they it's like do they bear does Company sponsor we're Gonna be doing C sharp skills training or as an individual thing or do you decide to do that on your own and that's kind of where I was headed I mean it seems like today
46:31 hiring manager Say I need to hire somebody who already has the skills in place preferably preferably with products similar to ours so that I can use this person for their existing skillset with no groom
46:46 Yeah which I did and where are people cause everybody wants but neither but most people it won't hire should want growth introductory in the future opportunities not keep doing what I've been doing the best three hours by absolutely absolutely and you know that was the way I groomed my folks and that was where do you want to be in three years because I eat out so I can help you get there because if I can't promote you into my position i can't be promoted from my position fear
47:13 is if it for Me I I started my career post MBA a G E in my left ear said Gosh i Gotta take my own career my own hands and I looked at the the roles I wanted in in your head of strategy head of business development I brawl is it up in the Partnership alliance is not in sales and I looked at their backgrounds is that Okay I have my market research background I need to go get partnerships and alliances and I need to go get product management and so I myself said okay let me find jobs to do that In build on each other and enlightened likely work but you know think about the ability to to invest in your people do it may I always thought it's a budget issue headcount wise right there's bit ten developers for every product manager at least wrap it up five intent maybe five ten salespeople for eat when you have the large scale it's easier to investing in our you feel like you're getting more for your money because there's more people that's of one of the reasons I looked at it John I'm love to get your take from Google Yahoo is it acknowledged this seen as somebody who invests in the development of their product management people getting pissed two things I want to touch on one is in the land of AH at all training or sales training Ah the outcomes the changes are measurable general expect a Telstra matthew sales radio telescope does massive success aberdeen with agile you know your philosophy is cuts it becomes more consistent and whatever like ways to measure that then you're the other examples you're mentioning the continuing education side of the things next Captain Steph my answered allocations and Scatter Parliament Yeah I'm so it's easier because it's like a requirement and then product manager sitting in a marketer's well are setting saying alas Damn so so I Google at the way the product management gets to have sort of influence and authority in continued element and all stuff is because we are distinctly measured on impact that comes back to the developers and sales people getting their training and having an impact that is measurable if you can get if you can for lack of better term quantify even if it's you know qualitative data though What kind of impact your progress people are having and then you make a case for and if we develop these people they will have even greater impacts our own company because it it's like it's such an ass you'd use of the phrase used for it's a lover now note and accelerants to company success when you have good project managers choosing to guys is exactly where it was this week yeah we were talking about it now and so if you get a you but you too if you don't you don't know the kind of impact recommended who's having the first place it's it's it's a well defined Britain people don't that's when you don't get to have those are all obsessed were into that point it's also time span right well we talk about bonuses for products made with have to do on an annual or quarterly basis because the impact we have is next year two years out both for development and sales you could see it's more tangible quicker right you can see it that quarter that next quarter and so it's easier to find those quantifiable things in show immediate impact from members versus more of the lot more longer term right while we're Gonna increase the success rate of our new product development initiatives by ten percent what's Gonna take two or three years to get through that process to do it it's it's a lot tougher with product management
50:40 see any last thoughts on this one stage
50:49 Yeah I'm Sorry I had like sixteen thoughts simultaneously in my in my brain broke down
50:57 well I mean i just i guess I want to circle back to my original point I mean there's me I'm I'm I'm frustrated at at
51:05 in that I talked to so many individuals who are like I need help doing understanding what my job as I wasn't I was not a product manager I was a scientist you know I was a developer I was a sales rep and they put me in this role and gave me no training and now I'm being judged on my inability to do this job that is ill defined and I have no training for I mean it is just UM imagine taken somebody and saying hey here's some here's double entry bookkeeping and i'll go and in fact in our way my in my own experience I mean i became a VP I went from having zero employees to twelve employs and I went to HR and I said is there any sort of recommended training and they went you know a lot of people like the one minute manager
51:57 and like welp okay what are we Gonna do the next minute You know I know I
52:03 I know I'm not supposed to harass people but other than that I mean now there are any rules here you know and I was given no training at all and I think a lot of people who have gone through training with me and the different companies I've been in there like finally I have clarity on what I'm being expected to do
52:23 it that's a great point Stephen in Edo it's the clarity the role in the function of product management is going to be a key thing and then what what's right training to help you do that better once you can establish that wrought as going to be critical think we're we're going to the lightning round and John I'm going to start with you on this one based on you know some of the conversation you talked about a quantifying of stuff what's the most important thing if you're evaluating a product manager a professional opportunities you have quantified need for something how are you Gonna judge look evaluate product development of fresh investment opportunities to find what what what's right one what's the most important thing about
53:02 matching the problem that you have with the team at the time kind of solution that the development water so once you identify the classification now find the solution is Gonna attack attack that one that you that how how do you choose between multiple things what's going to be the one you think is the best most materially impact
53:22 it ties back to which is most of it I guess except thinking back the earlier parts were a timeout like if it's a brand new team down and product management at give them a framework yeah and you can choose any one framework that you like probably the one you did just because you'll have shared vocabulary the people Alternatively if you're trying to level up an existing team then there's a specific problem you seem to have they don't prioritize well or
53:44 whatever the thing is in you find the best people to help you with that sort of problem so Matching what the current needed to talk to the the opportunity an ideal you find an organization that can help you across a bunch of different in your BB and you haven't had a relationship over time
54:05 I think that's great Jason
54:08 Oh so that's thought I was up So I'm really Gonna get over John I know that's not appropriate but put an AD on it and ends so I would also like you'd find on baby else is taken this country forces an interview not given an evaluation to tackle danny what were what was the outward means because with universal you want to know i do like evaluating design companies are some I want to know what the outcome the are are the tools they provide up the app everything's done the consulting engagement in this case is consulting game outputs is what's people have learned in actually done in other and organizations taken taking those courses and so on I think the most important thing is to talk to people got taken the these professional development the training whenever that is awesome so make sure you finish the need you currently have talk to people who have done it steve
55:06 yes and
55:09 I think that ultimate laying I would be evaluating on the
55:17 on the portfolio of offerings
55:21 I would want to have a one to one on one coaching for my directors and I'd Wanna have cohort based hands on for my level Medium people and I'd like to have a team building for my junior people and so being able to find a vendor that can do all of those things or giving a training course and do all of those things and to to amplify which onset as well over time you know I think a lot of times you know what this is just the this thing the difference of project and product What happens is we do these like a project we do a transaction we hire a firm they come in they show up they throw up and they leave and that is the end of training transaction is done and yet What we're looking at what we're talking about is not the project of training but the product of training and that is we want to transform an organization over the space of eighteen months not over the space of eighteen hours
56:26 continuous professional development versus continuous professional development
56:31 India and it was interesting I was having a conversation with a VP of product I was I'm
56:38 glad you use own death i was having a conversation I my thing is my computer Yeah I was having car sales over this weekend and they said are you sure you want to use the term professional development and you just say product management training that's what people are searching for and my Yeah but trading is just a component of professional development we need to be building out that full suite and we needed to your point I never thought that was they've make it a product it's a continuous thing it's an ongoing thing it's not A one time project then that's worked how you would get from one off nights of I'm going to say what's important thing I'm Gonna Yes and with steve and make sure that it they've got flexibility now do they have a diversity of stuff but they got flexibility to pivot We all have fires that come up right and you know how well can they pivot to say oh we thought we were going to work on privatization but all the sudden this long range plan and came up or this persona prompt came up how well can they pivot between the time things that you need to give you the flexibility has has gotta be that baseline on going but it's gotta be the be able to help you also in your moment of need
57:46 so all right
57:52 That's Okay Day we went with that we are actually actually and I went to the end of the show we're at at the end of today
58:00 nice Thank you so much for these great conversation on professional development and product management and how we can make it better and how we can make it more important make it continuous and ongoing I appreciate the input Jason Thank you John Steve and you Guys have a great Great Weekend too right.

Check out the playlist for this conversation on YouTube at https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEqPDEOgl0rrwysVPXkn3VZrQ9Wo3XCzv.