Tough Product Management Decisions

Tough Product Management Decisions
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TOTW - Tough Product Management Decisions
0:00 Hello everybody Grant Hunter here with product growth leaders for our topic of the week conversation we've got a great panel today and today we're going to dig into a topic on tough product management decisions What are these things are the product leaders a product manager we have to make tough decisions how do we make on what type of decisions are there and I've already got some input of of some breaking it down into different types of questions so with that said
0:28 IT looks like we got paul hurwitz also joining us we got a great panel today states should be drowning a student go on is really
0:36 get started
0:39 right away so with that let's get started going to The opened at question we had on Monday are open ended question on Monday was what is the toughest decision you have had to make in where did you go for advice
0:52 now Jason actually I I appreciate my boy come back and be in the first answer Ah but we're not Gonna talk about answer for if we're going to talk about the area that was the biggest group of answers and that was the end of life or killing a new product idea related
1:09 for me this was the toughest decision I had to make it was an end of life Decision for business I was hired to run any time you're hired to run something and you get in and under the covers and decide it's time to kill it it's not a great place to be steve had the same type of situation I want to go to
1:27 Greg I believe the bottom one here the inherited line is is your first if you're to
1:34 talk to me about you inherit a product I believe you invested in engagement analytics talk to me about the process you went through that I got lead you to the tough decision so this was this was a case or I I was joined a company and one of the private was multiple products that I owned one of the products was was greatly invested by multiple people across the organization isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread we have lots and lots of people engaging in then when you asked the question okay can you show me the metrics and there was nothing there was anecdotal information says okay Let's you know as part of you know standard practice let's go get in all put in place you know standard tracking of what is our users looking at within the product was the engagement all those things because then you can adjust so what are we actually going to invest in in the future once we kind of spent that time to and you know to a PUTTY and all the athletics we found that it was actually very very few audience to do that Vast majority the audience were actually internal people on which was not the target market at all and didn't pay for probably and pay for such and inside now it's now you're getting into that Tough Conversation okay should we actually invest in this is this actually a wrong product is the content wrong all those things and that's where I kind of partnered up with my marketing partner on to say okay what are we actually do here is this are we just why not hitting the target and it's just Gonna work together and said this is just not a product is not a product for that that is an external products in that was the really the hard part of going in explaining with data in getting kind of over that emotional rollercoaster comes with a lot of people are invested the saying you know that that this is something we should stop investing in she just stop investing and then determine how we're Gonna move whoever our external people into the proper place that we want them to the proper products and then the heart of It was actually the internal people because they're that's the there there's this internal love that was just unfounded and that was that was the hard part see it there's a there's a big dance but it's also you have to think about as a as the you know Product leaders like what are you doing with your people in I do actually like put money and put investment into your developers to build something that's actually not used in that that really started having those Bigger conversations start getting more and more ground swell of like this isn't worthwhile is we share an act of got that SEC that second paragraph of your earlier other answer regulator that type of stuff on the next page vet put his political question for you you know this is a tip i had a product I inherited that had a major feature that nobody used but was huge buying criteria how do you look at that
4:44 is was this a standalone product or was it something that was part of a suite or this was this was a standalone product by itself get in there were some features that you can actually move on to another product suite but it was a stand alone product they just kept on investing in and it's investing in for a longer period of time but but it was one of those like people love it in a girl
5:09 who who and and you know anyways It was not necessarily a revenue driver at all on there wasn't a Lotta revenue driven around it says like what what what are we trying to do is this a branding thing is this a what are we doing with this thing in that stout D start asking lot of those hard questions up in it really becomes a you know it really became a delicate dance because you kind of came in is the new guy and you're investing in Nessun and now you're saying well the babies ugly you know
5:42 and that's That's that's hard you have to you have to kind of be very very gum you know
5:49 delicate with the conversations with a lot of the lot of the executives no I I completely Agree I it was interesting because there's always an executive part to it that the the second from the bottom found an idea this was from I think I believe rob Goldberg found the idea A mile of it by hand and validate the knee but they had a problem with what the cut price would have to be book to do it manually the price point that work they weren't willing to pay and they had then they model with A I it took a while for them to figure out that right now that had to shelve but they did do some work to convince the business leaders shelf it off and that's part of the hardest problem is convincing the business leaders whether it's emotional or you know stars in the sky Ah when we get to the next page and bring pollen to talk about his situation the cash cow I want to look you know they made it that they made a strategy decision when rob was there to just to not go forward with a product that in a way that's end of life because it never it's right whereas beginning at you know I'd like to reach out to some of the other panelists a O'brien or john or tom have you guys had situations with tough end of life decisions that you make
7:01 Yeah I'm going through one right now era we have our product has been used internally just approved the technology out I book pretty much breaking even a little bit extra costumes over the cost We see a lot more value if we move it out to our external users onto to our advisors about making that decision of are we willing to put this is a higher priority than other stuff during the coming year The only get it out to our advisors to make it valuable or do we say break breakeven was just cut it in a pick it up at some other point where it it's tough I mean I now Clayton Christensen innovative solution there's tons of statistics out there and universe loosely we talked about research that showed that something like
7:49 sixty percent of all products that started A new NP the process didn't make it to market in forty percent of those that did actually knows front reverse that forty percent of products that AH started I never made it to market in whatever the status of some like seventy six percent never had an hour why either didn't make it to market or have an hour ally and sometimes the toughest thing is killing it early because people want to take it further how do you start thinking about Marijuana
8:22 OH right Yeah we have good data on our it right now and are cost savings with art our service professionals that are using it Ah but he knows what it can do so it's a chat bot product in it's network If we get this out externally Watchdog contact abatement we can get with that they don't need to talk to one of our agents are part of that is just educated guess here is a common question we think we can handle without x amount of adoption I'm across our advisors who give us this percentage contact abatement which reveal certain savings but now until you get there and you actually get it out into the market the provoke those numbers Yeah it's tough and we're or you do it you know moderate roll out John tom I'm Monica have you guys at the end of life's big decisions
9:21 Sorry you know Amir to their two things here that the kind of struck a chord one is regarding end the life in that decision ahead products that it wasn't difficult to know that they just needed to die
9:37 evidently it was because you looked at him you knew it the harder part goes to what was said before was navigating the politics and the emotions people are so invested in it
9:49 There is either an emotional component that that they don't want to let it go to their baby or there's politics involved and you Gotta navigate that and come up with the right evidence that this thing just needs to go away
10:03 now the other part of that that know there's no mention it had struck a chord with the emotional component for that that was the difficult part for me having been invested In a product for years and then moving up the ladder and having to learn to step back and look at it critically and objectively to know now what do I want to do with this what needs to go into it how do we want to take this in the market and how do I have to convince people they need to step back as well
10:39 so we can evaluate it appropriately of international importance turned out to be the yeah Yeah the emotional component turned out to be the harder part in that process but in some of the products says you looked at me you now they need to go now I i had multiple times and I was the tough decision the first one listed there and multiple times I've come in I've done My Due Diligence I'll make it's time to put a bullet in it right and when that's the job you were hired to do that's one of the harder decisions you could make because you're not sure you don't have enough time there for them to have the trust of you know took to feel that they'll take care of Me I I remember a dinner in London with the present of my business unit and we were there for a European sales kick off and i was putting his presentation together and as I started put all the data together like
11:30 our business unit really doesn't really make sense I think we need to fault had hinted that the proper and my whole flight over was how AM I going to tell this President of a division a fifty million dollar division dude I don't think they need US
11:47 or the you running here the cases like these the emotional part
11:53 is that the people that are that our happen more or less dedicated to it so if you're talking about killing a product for instance there may be dedicated developers and and operations almost any like wall what are you going to do with these people you know it's like if you could kill a product they have nothing to work on in that stand out now that kind of comes to the majority of the business the flight repurchasing people and putting them on to new things or is it just okay great we're just Gonna cut everybody In that comes into that there's the decision part of it and then there's the plan of how to do it in getting the senior leadership to buy off on it you need to have a plan that's going to think about those things as well we're going to talk a little bit more about that type of stuff in there open ended questions I want to get the next page and We'll start at the top and we're going to start with Jason I was hoping that we would get steve to be able to be on but when you can praise him at how wonderful and brilliant he is but know talk to US about your migration into your enhancement request to those are just take US I think that in a wife could be a a complete session by itself is America decisions and UM is it a the problem with going first on entering what you're crazy questions grants is at our bills has way better answers than I do then I'm like you get to the back
13:11 but I guess it was afraid right just answer again yeah there you go oh yeah of life
13:19 soldiers early on I didn't really know much about product management just took steve's tourism I make and I walk right up to steve and I said listen I have Ah you know a thousand two thousand in here to request dating back years inside of the system i Wanna move to a new system do I migrate those are the answers to the new system is like dating back how long he said you had a fire in the system menu migrated the data and they all got destroyed and saw that kind of stuck with me for ever um ASS you know a lot of my product integrity Alexandria teams will get overwhelmed with outstanding against requests and suggestions at Hampden not get to that have been dated by customers a don't no longer with the company or you know the product has evolved is situated in history personal irrelevant but he still stayed open in waiting for review and it just becomes a number when a number so big you just ignore the whole thing as a process is on actually going through that again with my current company giving him advice as we vote to sort of a suggestion process to say was you have all these outstanding uM know host asked any feedback items I know it's tough but it would just kill them all in if they report in the comeback because we don't get it's little changed since then I who who hasn't done that with our inbox right on the delete all these things I haven't seen in like six months and if if they haven't followed up on it but they probably didn't matter I actually called that the cherry hill public schools budgeting process my my school district growing up they would killed a program just to see if people would make a big steak right if I kill the program and nobody said anything nobody followed up there was worth killing right in so the music department always got funded so because we were allowed that's like that's like when you're that's like when you're moving they say that if you haven't opened a box six months after you moved just throw the box out there or or or or the closet with the put your coat hangers backwards and you know there's all different things but I came here to request or one those places and product that's tough because you keep getting em
15:29 and you know you're going to if they're coming from their customer know the murderer would say if you've got feedback as a gift so Yeah what but if you're not seeing enough of them to make it float to the top there's a reason for that true so par with that I want to pivot to you because you're the next one it was the the the website analytics to be a cash cow in convincing you that you're head of product you hired you that that was not
16:01 yet so it was I was working for a health care company In the service we were offering was a benefit offered to employees and so we had to provide reports and analytics to the HR benefits administrators to show that we were running good wellness and wellbeing programs for their employees The head of product hired nineties like I need you to build this website to deliver new reports a new dashboards to our customers that we're Gonna be able to charge them a lot of money for I need you to figure out what the prices that we can charge for them and and let's get this rolling once I started doing a little little
16:39 bit of research a computer doing I realize we couldn't charge anything for this this was that this was just a check box that we had offered just like our competitors offered it
16:51 so I just I had to come up with a way to convince the head of product who was actually a physician by training but had moved into the software world I convince her This was Gonna be good for competing an hour of peace this is going to be good for customer retention and this was going to be good for offering the information and telling the story that we need a detailed but we won't be able to charge any money for it
17:17 so I was able to couch that in a in a convent trying to convince her by I spoke to a few product people that I know from around the product seen in New York City that I see all the time and so one one of them actually had a really good idea he said come up with ideas for once you build this what our up sales day you can actually charge for on this new website the May not be available day one that you go live but you can convince the head of product six months in a year and we can start charging for these advanced analytics were these deep dive drill down analytics and eventually will make money on it just not right away
18:02 that you find those advanced analytics yes I did I was able to come up with the data that we were providing dashboards and reports with very high level but if we came up with this idea that if they wanted to break it down either by geographic location break it down by type of employee or just break it down even further into like age categories of the data that we were showing them that's something that they'd be willing to pay a little extra for to be able to get into those advanced analytics on wheels roddick lead group almost like product like growth give them a little to whet their appetite for free and then you know find the things I value that they're Gonna spend a little more money on
18:47 before we get back to Greg and his
18:50 credibility and trust aspect that you know John in and Monique you Guys have been quiet i'd love to get your take will start with John you know where do you see the tough decisions where they come from
19:03 what have you dealt with it as for the hard thing for me to get used to a google is that we have the inverse problem so Like the default expectation is that you'll kill something and you have to prove why you're not Gonna
19:18 am so like how I was my Boss is the guy who launched and then later killed inbox
19:24 and it's at that sort of pattern of issues Google graveyards with a pattern of history repeats itself a ago in ways they'll make fun of but like you have to justify the continued existence of the thing using terror using metrics using consume your customer Backward are your users indicates the free part Saga it is definite mindset shift I don't have to like I haven't had to deal with the fallout from executives of killing something because I had to convince him to keep it in the first place if that makes sense it's a very strange shift no I I love the extra me you no items the recruiting platform I was talking to call a day who's the founder see now is he was the CEO he's now the chairman their own by Vista and we are talking about growth in that type of stuff and they had a not to do award they gave awards to people for coming up with ideas of things they should stop doing
20:18 and you know what let me it sounds like that's the flip that you had as you got the is is that you know you you have to kinda want to keep doing it right Yeah exactly it's really crazy I have a courtship Yeah because you if you have against US you're Gonna say if you have that culture
20:36 that you end up focusing on the things that are the biggest multiplier is ultimately hey yeah into it into it used to have a philosophy that if a if a huge idea was killed before it went to market
20:52 Because it was deemed not be any good like they would give out awards for for a huge thing that was killed that would save the money the company a lot of money by not actually developing at bringing it to market but think about that concept I mean you talk about how much it costs to kill a product and I've dug I found the research it was an innovative solution sixty forty percent of our products i get started an amputee process don't make it out of that process they just keep either living in that the the bill trap or they just get killed before they get launched end of the sixty percent that make it to market forty percent or of the yeah sixty don't make it out of the forty percent that do
21:36 they don't make an hour lines or seventy six percent three out of four and think about how much money and time is wasted on things that don't ever either make it to market or make it or make a return is ridiculous but one of the ways a buddy mine's got cell harvest is a product genius in my mind it taught me about this you have like
21:58 how confident are you are you and your assumptions about other decks right it's a bunch of assumptions our feature X or whatever the thing is all the way up you know from gut feel all the way to proven research first party it done and then how expensive is it are you is is it going to be if you're wrong then a certain dislike to buy two and if you are not terribly confident and it's Gonna be really expensive if you're wrong you pay to learn Yeah and be known so you bringing your confidence up in that thing and and or maybe find ways to reduce the expense of being wrong More than any sort of possibility versus plausibility into to your point the impact of what happens if it doesn't I want to give you a chance you have any comments on tough decisions you're you're you're relatively new to the product sphere What word you face what type of type this is tough decisions have you faced Yeah I've been involved in only enough life of product decisions yeah definitely enough feature decisions we recently created a feature that August most loud The top associate and was not dealing with leadership because computer chip was also meant that we should definitely give that feature because I work on IOS products and apple doesn't support that feature so it's not a standard feature that weekend effort so bad Problem was from the customers and because they loved that feature they use that featured really useful for them they it makes their life easier so it was how can we can we that this feature is going to end for them and they should find another workaround that is up less ugh just not as easy as dido feature that used to be or it isn't going to make the life as easy as though and offline feature that we were thinking about so we just had to make a decision then and said girl and UM communication a few months before that we are going to go there in the coming releases due to the following changes from apple and it's not something that we are responsible for bad vs how to make the hard decision I still get calls from customers asking about why you get that feige I really love that feature I actually have a call next week to discuss at what might be go that and how we can provide them with a walk around and all we can use it it's interesting and it's actually a perfect segue way back to Greg because Greg had the you know that the feature that he was we are the product that he had executive had them do and how do you build the trust you're talking about trust with the customer Greg was talk about trust internally with the development Organization I'd love to get your take Greg Ah Yes this was a case it at a professional financial services company they had a key Marc magazine that they would give out all their professional users in it was
24:40 and in we all knew it was a coffee table you know document it's likeness that status you know hubris type of thing and executive says we need to make this into a digital magazine we have to make it into digital magazine even though they're Gonna ship all the product the paper magazines anyway like okay
25:02 and no matter what conversations you have it you have to do this is it we're never Gonna make money on it nobody's ever going to read it all them all the research we did to all of the you know the customer segments we're not gonna read it
25:17 It was one of those like you have to do it so you know you had to pull your development teams to gather your marketing your creatives design guys all of them and you just Gonna move forward do it knowing full well that There is there is no customers and the customer base was when we launched it after six months' our customer bases in the low teens
25:46 you know It just actually subscribe to it verses like actually read it
25:51 even thought about understanding that the product was actually beautiful it was it was spectacular on when I was a it was a variation of something else we already had done but it was it was Popular but
26:04 balancing that you have the developers kind of questioning all the time like on us and you know you put you as a as the product lead a kind of cut scene is very delicate Situation of like you have to you know you have the executives like we really want us customers really want it all those things in the developer's going to be really what are we doing and and pushing really hard situation very hard but that's about to understand the problem you're solving that that that table coffee table book was solving a problem for people who are either designed to have it there to show them they have it or something for somebody read when there were there you know
26:44 it's it's an interesting one I I personally glad that hemisphere has an online proportion because now when I'm not traveling I can still read three days in and
26:55 so with that said that joke falling flat I'm Gonna move onto our Poll
27:00 and you know we've we've we've done a ton of talking about end of life the main question I have for the paul is we move to what's the most frequent decision and I know a lot of people have dealt with and the life we talked about it is that just that people don't have a lot of tough decisions them they do it's end of life is it that they actually have lotta end of life decisions we had three three out of the seven poll at ease again then nuts is the significance at end of life
27:29 Anybody with thoughts on that more than we've talked about already
27:36 changed my vote because you change the question and I read the question too fast
27:42 so I would out with I think I would end of life is a tough decision yeah but you said the most frequent type innocently is it so frequent am so yeah it would be on the third one Because drives are those apps and privatization Yeah I Group I agree with that Jason is like if it's talking about frequent frequently kill things yeah or you got some people who are so good that the only tough decisions I have to make us killing thing Mr right
28:12 who has the frequency of hiring and firing workers exactly this obviously this is Gonna be greg this is the loot he called me out on this one and I agree if I could go back and change it I would say it The hiring and fire was very much a product leader thing into Greg's point that's another two two totally different types of decision so you know nobody voted for it anyways product lifecycle related This is a place where I differentiated end of life which is a specific thing and product lifecycle which is changing how you handle something based on where it is in the lifecycle have as anybody ever had to deal with outside of myself how to deal with A Product lifecycle decision that wasn't end of life
28:56 video of the I we have by the end game was in the wife it so there was a change in a public place product's lifecycle to get that point knowing about where we're at in terms of what was it we were There yet but there was no chance for resuscitation honestly
29:15 for me it's about how do you change how you engage with the market the product lifecycle in my head you know everything sounds great my head
29:24 It was about how do you make decisions about shifting from inception and product market fit to the hyper growth stuff of wow what do you do and how do prioritize features who do engage with when you're hyper growth versus now you as you come out of it into maturity and a different type of decisions you need to make i guess all of those will end up with if you do it right album end up probably with a sunset or o L decision but sometimes it's about shifting the priorities of the product based on where you are in that cycle and that sort of where my head was with that I would that also relate to like you're trying to you're trying a product knowing it's very early in the entire
30:05 Consumer consumption you know mottled of fits in both those guys launched out like though tt products well before we could figure out how to monetize on all those things just to get it out get the name out get the engagement and then figure out later how are actually going to
30:27 predictably ugh make money on all of that magic has one of those you had to be there Otherwise You're just a you know an also ran and then like two johns point it's like sometimes you just have to Gonna sit back and go okay that was great but should we continue yeah exactly but also part of its who do you pray you know you you launch a product you got initial group of initial customers who do you listen to when you prioritize features to add those small group of customers represent ten percent of the potential market or the ninety percent of potential market who hasn't bought yet
30:58 right you know how do you shift your privatisation that I think about this now I would have replaced hiring and firing personnel with starting a second growth curve are you're next growth curve
31:09 because one of the toughest decisions is it's not end of life yet but when you start the next one because you can't start or end of life it's way too late
31:19 where you get to start in that John
31:23 Google being the king of killing things do normally have is it killing it has the problem is not there the mark doesn't have it or is it how do you make decisions on the next thing to do
31:36 there's always plenty of ideas about the next things to do and so we
31:41 try to do what our research we can to figure out what the next best thing to do is
31:47 you in the case like when we killed inbox we took a great number of those features and then back incorporated them into gmail and basically rhee architected gmail A pretty significant way
31:59 keeping the things from inbox if people really liked and then from there the next giant evolution that Yeah I don't know if you Guys have noticed or not but this Hope Google workspace bringing making make Nino gmail sort of this hub of Work Hope everybody is like you know realizing that the the writings on the wall with chat companies and video conferencing and the having twenty seven different things to go to you know to get your work done is too much and just try to make it better for our users and it's a huge effort I'd obviously hundreds of engineers working to make this integrated experience work but hopefully it is the next best thing to do and we didn't have said adding that tax the next rocker gone from these independent stand alone Solutions to this integrated in a office suite as in a two tap the the former example if I am going to move onto our open ended question so we can get to all of them
32:52 now Multiple people have these situations what is the best way to handle a recommendation on a tough decision that leadership ignores right we talk about places where we make we make the recommendation and leadership whether it's emotional personal whatever ignores Doesn't Wanna follow it you know what's the right in you know what's the right thing to do what's the right reads Recourse
33:17 right offers out Jason Okay well I was Gonna say anything been said before get data to support the recommendation and data come from feelings on all day especially for getting data from multiple sources external inst internal obviously to get your product data from analytics users and those kind of things but then you don't need a muni market data you need some kind of bipartisan third parties to bet what your decision Is I always Argentina's relations or Wiles I would always talk to my analyst wanna be forest or darker IDC others and say hey we're planning on doing this what do you think and then you know sometimes at there's that provides good weight to the leadership team who are A Lotta times more respect with inner cities are does I ever watch paint dry sometimes the market valuation of other company actually I had one time where I could justify my twenty five thousand dollar Gartner group budget for the supply chain services back in what ninety seven for that exact reason I could get aren't measure to say cheeks a bad idea so you go to a go to a trusted for trusted advisors bring that in In in in include that with your data and I think that you can get asked a lot of those feelings at leadership balls Yeah Paul did you have something would add up he has in the South I would definitely echo adjacent saying that it's all about data and that's actually how I got my start in product management at this company up in Boston I really kind of grew up in my career is my second my first real job out of College I was employee number three in the company
34:54 and with everything that goes with it wearing every hat doing whatever needs to get done tech support I T training got everything
35:03 about five years or so into things We have hit a plateau in sales and we were not growing employee number two in myself we really knew what was going on we were not listening to our customers enough of what they needed in me list
35:21 to the founder too much I actually did some skunk works where for probably took me two or three months I called up about half of our customers was about four hundred people at the time to ask them what were the top things op problems that we weren T solving for them or they wanted us to solve top issues that they had this offer basically just trying to build a top ten of things that we needed to work on now there were these two or three things that my boss had said would never Gonna do those people in the budgeting and financial forecasting space they don't need these features will yeah those features were on my top ten list that I compiled talking four hundred customers and I brought this data to my Boss and I said look this is hard data that says we need to listen to our customers more and we need a product manager ted to lead that charge of listening to the customers I made the pitch that we needed a product manager and for me to be the product manager excepted both pitches
36:23 a it it really it over the years I've sort of boil that down too if it's if it's my opinion versus my Boss's opinion my boss's Noone is going to win every single time if it's my stacks against My Boss's opinion my facts should win and if they don't it's send need it's time to look for a new job it's the Oil Yeah it's the It's the Old Bug in your opinions while interesting or irrelevant but also tied with the if if you're always getting trumped I've only had the data it's a culture issue at with leadership and you mean you make a decision greg you know you had you use data you put the user metrics end to help make the decision on the one product to talk to me about how do you how do you you're now a leader now you'll come up through it and
37:12 one of the things that you know with the opinion part is that I think that you know presenting the data can be dry
37:21 and that's that that is
37:25 you need to kind of put yourself a little bit into their position Like taught try to say you know what what is their principles what are they actually power they actually looking at the world and then craft the data that kind of holes that argument because you can just how data at someone and they'll like okay that's that's great but you know dell just poke holes in each one of them because their opinion has been formed if you can craft it a bit to turn the data to supplement or understand where they're where their potential arguments or be where which side they're on then it skipped goes much much faster much further along otherwise it's just data that they can just poke holes than say yeah but that what about this and what about that and can talk to the customers right in and ask the questions correctly or Blah Blah Blah and goes on and on and you just know I it's it's completely true and partners also understanding how they make decisions right how they think in in making sure you take that into consideration i'd like to get brian or tom in on that you guys have been quiet we've been we've got so many people this week I
38:33 will start with Tom your thoughts on the best way to handle recommendations on a tough decision that leadership ignores how have you dealt with that
38:42 Yeah I think you're the common earlier about data having the facts and in line
38:50 there's it's harder for them to dispute that
38:54 Yeah experienced that I had was to look at a product suite and evaluate it see if I get it going but me has overwhelming that the thing's never going to make it once you lay out the facts neighbor Because April but two or three years they had an escalation of commitment actually been longer than that that they just kept jumping into it but once they saw you laid out the magnitude of what they're up against and you had all the facts blind They Couldn't Ignore it anymore now in day they have to let their emotions go at that point you just cut it but getting all those facts in line that's the critical part now I I completely agree actually i've I've been in a place where had the facts in mind the in the leader didn't listen to them I will tell you don't do that kick the can down the road I
39:46 I just Ignore i just put basically put a pocket veto on it
39:51 and I didn't work on it and then I got the I they'll be hell to pay off
39:57 but that goes back to Paul's comment on culture right if if they're not Gonna listen to the data the fact is that where you want to be bryant you have any thoughts on on this before I move to the next one Yep Yeah I think good the data is definitely important but it's making sure you have the right data audio what what are they looking for your most executives are looking at the financial so coming to him with usage data translated up money for them so you have to put that story behind the data in the app does it mean to absorb less usage less money
40:31 and whatever they're focused on not just the raw data i had a head of products it into the financials I'd done all the analysis in my broke down what we could do and I did a pro forma on it and the programmers like now we should make this investment and my head a price of all but the president said this is what he wants to do to make it so it looks like it
40:54 but you know I I wasn't i stuck to my guns luckily the president became my mentor or not that's not the head of products aren't we're going to move to our second question how do you best prepare and support your team when they are faced with a tough decision so we're talking about people who got either met people there coaching men's tees are direct reports
41:18 from me it was exactly what Brian said it was help teaching my team how to spot speak financials right because if you could talk to the dollars and cents of it and they are a wise that type of stuff especially in the company I was in that was that was how you got things across OH and lay things out financially build the business case right and then it's a decision of bill by or whatever it may be a go no go should we do something like this and then once they say yes we should do it then you go to the options
41:50 of how to do it I you know I'm going to come right back to tom on this one you know how have you dealt with helping younger product managers
42:02 prepare for this
42:09 Yeah Yeah i can't hear you Tom
42:13 dart and you did your
42:18 job yet it all head I don't know if I can relate Best answer that one with with my experience was trying to get them through that need the experience we talked about before about trying to get people to emotionally step back and beauty is is some of the mentoring I've done in that regard Look at the products subjectively but I haven't had T I don't think I've had enough experience with that we'll talk about it in any meaningful way I I I appreciate the candidates on that Greg a a lots I would the the onion I was Gonna say the on emotional nature of it and um firstly I think the first thing is you have to understand where what
43:03 Whoever you're going to be presenting to what type of decision you want to try and get what is the benefits to that person or that team and then utilizing and on emotional way of going forward as soon as you become emotional
43:19 about things then then if they've lost and that's the rub be factual understand where they're coming from is a side like financial side state things like that and then present all of that information and if it doesn't really pan out in your head to go do that then maybe that's something you shouldn't actually bring forward
43:43 makes sense John I'm Gonna go to you or any ER experience with you know the consulting side of it how have you helped your clients when you were consulting deal with these types of things
43:57 yeah so it's a combination of The understand the decision makers what motivates them
44:05 it's other grand your case the business case was the thing that was motivating to all the key decision makers in so having your product people are whatever know those numbers and be able to make a uninformed citation on on that is the way to get people behind your decision but basically you had figure out whatever the numbers are are the things are that are important to that company
44:26 and and drive data to support or
44:33 ah whatever the opposite of support is failing me those those decisions right Yeah
44:42 Monica I'd love to get your take on what advice you got from your leadership with the the feature you Guys had to unfortunately not have because of apple
44:53 yes
44:55 my marriage is really great he is not a micro manager he usually lose most of additions to me was religion and helped me grow but if I failed station striker's i usually reach out to him and israel like gather data Gather and see how many people are actually using this feature and just upload the data in a presentation in a readable format and just adopted leadership about by trying to kill this and also support until all the news articles from than those of big droplet people about their safety can get this feature back in the future og know they are permanently going to do with this feature and get that reports do all that communication do in the presentation and A limited readership so we can have support on from the data site and then make decisions based on that so it seems like this was overwhelming get the data in an objective this you can use and then understand who you're communicating with and what styles Gonna be the best approach to to whether it's financial or statistical or whatever to be able to get it across Yeah
46:05 I think that's everybody's across the board with that said we're going to move to our final question this is our rapid fire question I'm going to go to every up on the screen and it it's going to be in my order left to right as I see them in quick answer to this question you know You're thirty seconds or whatever what are who are your go to sources for advice when facing a tough decision in tom you are lucky person to be just to mind that left and I get started with you
46:39 actually it's a it's a former manager was a completely different company now
46:45 I don't do it within the company I'll go to somebody i trust outside and Bounce ideas off him because I know too good sounding board
46:56 there we got a long history together in a in everything will stay confidential in bit is he's reliable
47:04 Awesome Ryan you You're next in the queue
47:11 I start with my Peers my fellow product managers ah no insight or empathy but inside my copy their familiar with the product that The Guy on the culture also just to get their viewpoint on what's driving through People's decisions to continue or not to continue and then also bounce the data off though does this make sense is my interpretation of this data correct I think now get overwhelmed with so much data it's always good to have second third pair of eyes look at it to make sure how you're seen it makes sense in here You're not making things up with the data now with sir like with statistics data you can lie about anything take your biases away
47:58 Yeah John Harmer you are next in Queue
48:04 It depends on the context of the tough decision it's either my manager and or some P m s in my organization or if it's the kind of thing that I think is a lot more sensitive to like to the organization whatever but I but I need extra help I have a group of like three or four dudes in a slack channel that we talk about this stuff all the time
48:23 awesome this other band name three or four dudes in a slack channel
48:29 right greg fenton The I basically the same thing it depends upon the context so I have I don't have my three dudes in the slack channel button at the you know it depends upon it in I have partners within the company whether it's my marketing partner or you know my revenue partner things like that bum and also my my senior executive or if it's note some other types of tough decisions of how to actually move forward I have trusted people I worked with for many many years to bounce ideas often and we know we can go back and forth and be brutally honest with each other
49:10 You know it's It's okay to call me stupid you know in that draft in that type of three dudes channel
49:17 Awesome movie Guy you are next
49:22 Ah Yeah usually be my peers are fellow product manager then my manager of course either he would be the first one that I would reach out to usually end is really good and yeah and maybe be of product strategy to
49:39 Awesome Jason Vince let
49:43 well for about a minute and gay it would not be a cheaper daughter and my organization is at a level and sound way of thinking about things and and kind of working through puberty and is very editor as well so let's has worked pretty well for everything else it has to be my wife who keeps me from doing anything stupid
50:07 in this whole question was Written because your answer was that Steve was the person you went to a mental disorder one the first one but then I word work ethic all right paul hurwitz
50:23 so I've got a couple of different sources number one if it's still general business type of question that I just need some advice on I'm Gonna end up former manager from I haven't worked for in eight or nine years but she still the one that I go back to she was VP of engineering at a at the start up up in Boston I was at I still go back to her for advice it comes to product advice that I'm just looking to help me that Something or think about an idea
50:54 there's a product management mentorship program based here in New York Jeremy Horns Group but the product mentor I did mentoring in that group for several years now
51:06 and I become good friends with several of the mentor's in their typically my sounding Board ah these three or four guys not the slack channel but three or four guys I go to when I Wanna sound sound off on some ideas
51:22 Awesome in in for Me I'll answer the question I actually have a couple of different it depends right I've got one person I go to who to validate how smart I am and how stupid other people are who disagree with me
51:37 you know but that's more of the Ra Ra you know You're right but I have I've got some a former customer and partner who if I'm going if I'm digging through things and trying to figure things out
51:52 That's who I Go to I also have a lifelong friend who have also done work with who I go to for help on the communication side right there is one part of helping me make the decision but the other part has helped me figure out how to position you know how how to either write an email and I'll send full copy to them and they'll rip it to shreds and making and get it to the point so you know for me there's that that that multiple i agree it depends on the type of situation but also this is also which component of the situation so with that said I got I Wanna thank everybody for being on our call this week John Harmer Thank you so much Jason Pizza let greg Fenton Monica Paul
52:34 Tom Brian this has been a great conversation are tough questions actually I got some ideas for future topics to talk about and you know what a great week More answers on the open question than we normally have more votes on the poll in our I think our largest turnouts for the call so thanks to every each and every one of you thank you so much we'll see you guys on the community and hopefully see you next week about you you say you're going game by legs

Check out the playlist for this conversation on YouTube at https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEqPDEOgl0rrEqL-XHPLhZLBlFnwmCn1V.