What is a 'product'?

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TOTW - What is a Product
0:01 This week our topic is what is a product and jon I have to say I was almost expecting to get a question from you say clarifying it after the last very very big broad question that the act but this one I came out of the gate with it is that you know this goes back to product management training right when there's the whole concept of what is a product and you know Steve and I were thinking it could be a fun conversation I was looking forward to all the great comments we're going Monday thing it's a line
0:32 I said I'm going to beat Jason took this time I'm Gonna go and I'm Gonna answer it and I met first answer was mine Product is a solution for a persona problem including all components necessary to fully solve that problem the whole product concept and the person's persona experience throughout the process experiences part of the product and I'm like I was looking for all these great eggs on my product isn't just goes dead end it's coming you did you did kind of comprehensively the mail on Monday morning I mean i don't know did for me
1:07 I look at it is interesting that peep I I'm amazed the number of times I talk to people who have no definition or near their definition of product never includes persona es or problems
1:24 and they say our savior you'd understand why we make products and I'm like well okay what do you mean by product and they certainly don't mean the whole product with what they mean is I make an apple A small application or I may got applet within a bigger application and
1:42 in my world very arrogant people really seem to struggle with
1:48 they think software equals product
1:52 and like services don't qualify cause services aren't software so therefore services parent products and I'm like I've done it out of service deck don't I'm sorry I didn't hear anyone You're going camping sites I didn't want to bother you with it but Yeah sorry that's okay fair enough I see the interesting thing you know there's the old theater elaborate they're not buying a quarter inch drill bit they're buying a quarter inch hole and then you know I'm assuming robs going to take I would take that to the outcome based are actually not buying a quarter troll they're doing something with that court I want to hang a picture I want to hang a picture I want to build something and I'm going to use that as the pivot into The Addendum first Addendum we had was from rob talking about the psychological behavioral aspect of it's not just the problem but there's a what related to that problem
2:47 I added a lotta whole pains versus gains right Yeah so I had a boat but I turned it into a job if you notice I turned it into a jobs to be done in my my longer explanation which is if I'm hungry I'm hungry because I don't have access to Good so my My what at that moment is to satisfy my hunger the problem is access to access to food the solution could be a vending machine air where I observe work or or location so i sort of turned into because I was I when I read through it because I thought greg either I thought you now the director are holding what I what about the what need and it has all that turned into like being carried away with this but I do think that um it for me at all I always became the focus of outcome we we we build things to satisfy my features derive a benefit that satisfy the outcome that a potential customer or existing cus Merck is trying to achieve
3:51 our cat loves it's interesting I I got Us I don't know if I'm steve probably seen it if anybody here has in it and I've probably told the stories of I have just shut tell me to shut up at the shopping center where we go grocery shopping there's a domino's two doors down from a originals Pizza I tell the story not to us but I'd I know the story and been there ten years let ten years and in on the Dominoes and seven ninety nine take out Pizza and so when I teach my growth strategy class I talk about you know how could these two companies compete right originals in dominoes they sell the same product right this saw Pizza you know flour yeast water and let it rise make it into a circle put some tomato sauce and seasoning and cheese on it got pizza right if they sell the same product how can regional survive ten years right charging twice as much from for upon
4:53 the reality is actually solve different problems right dominoes predominantly Sobs a take out who hour delivery food problem which until recently it was Pizza places and Asian food places that did that now uber eats and door dash now create a bigger market there for that they also Regionals has sit down dinner you can have wait service and you can order a full menu in that type of stuff and dominance doesn't have that don't compete knows do they have other competitors for those the one place they do compete as take out pizza but this is where Market segmentation comes into play with the fat definition of a product because I guarantee you I would never pay seven ninety nine for dominos Pizza and I will pay fifty bucks for originals right The product also has to have some definite built into it the alignment with the needs of the segment right minded is a quality pizza not a cheap pizza
5:47 so I don't know that my little rant state so much better at writing than I Am of a concept there is your is that the problem you're solving is hunger but the experience the second half of this of your original definition is what changes either whether it is it averages in there I take out the experience of eating a pizza is better because it has higher quality ingredients more care put into thing it's not a cheap cardboard dominant thing right that that's how that
6:17 so it just this it's it's a way I could get that for loyalty aspect Yeah it's it's way I I like to get people to step out of you know it's the same physical form factor right Pizza Pizza
6:29 little Caesars
6:32 you know Earth gone now I was hoping Greg was going to be on the call this week because he followed up Rob's with this concept of you have to get the need behind the what and he was more talking I won a button here need or want right which is really a feature request and I wanted to ask the question other different definitions of what right it seems like rob was very much focused on the behavioral Psycho outcome version of a of a what versus a feature request one
7:03 allow rubber way to get you a chance to
7:08 pass it on the road
7:11 but the thing about a little but Yeah I would say that there are I had something out what what I was some hundred years ago when I went through the dread it Dude go
7:21 Way before six Sigma Um when when Joe Girard was the was the god of what he gave out there Sir
7:30 he gave up his pamphlet a booklet on all the different needs and wants and I I do think there are different levels of was I Kid I won't be able to articulate them because my it's friday and my head it's uS is swimming but i do think there are like you think that up I do think there's behavioral wants a boy I think there's also physical ones I think there are a moat guess it's the cycle peace with the emotional ones and I think day ago we can break it all down into everybody's trying to achieve some type of outcome based on at what's on buying a minute what's the difference between an m out he anna volkswagens the same chassis The differences but the label that's on it em how it makes me feel
8:20 you know and so there's a psychological component to what I'm deriving from that and I think that's important when we build products is actually important mummy price Alex because I may be pricing at a prestige level then at some other level because I'm trying to create the Aura of of Asia and Hinnom a psycho a psychographic me is a or solving us have you grabbing me a one versus eight in sub gets physical with the product I it's the mental note I wanted Redo our persona and segmentation one with rob on that call Because I want to ask the question is we had this long debate about
9:01 our percent of the segmentation the same thing and you know I've had a long conversation with steve saying is luxury auto a persona or is it a separate segment
9:14 and you just sort of went there with you about Eve V W and add portion of that mix right
9:21 I was just an aside what what will get back that topic another time because I've got Yeah there's always many replace so many great car examples you know the boxer has so many great car examples the CEO the C Series Mercedes the three series or less you know BMW he's actually loved products into a prestige premium bread that allow people to feel like they're driving in E class when they're chugging sea glass Tom you've been quiet on that you didn't have an answer here I'd like to get you know you've now heard a whole bunch of US are talking about our thoughts on what is product I'd love to get your take what your thought
10:00 OH hey there's a lot of interesting discussion there in no basically it's builders comes back to the Old C
10:08 solution or a service to fulfill a need or a want and then we can split hairs between needs and wants as we go Don't don't don't jump ahead you're jumping ahead slides
10:21 a solution or service can be early dumb broad as well me week we can parse that out as we go but basically it's it something this be it something to fulfil some need or want in it could be mean as you'd said with with Pizza could be that I wanted a five dollar seven delegates that I can get quickly take home sit on the couch with kids and watch a bad movie or I want a glass of wine with that at a restaurant and not have to worry about it and to relax a little bit
10:52 it depends on where I am at that point and what my need versus want Is Absolute meet you in the Internet will probably get full further than what you want right now where the product versus product management
11:09 where not no product
11:13 Miami product management defines that in it's Gonna be different for every situation he sat upon us to Yeah Yeah and that's where we've Gotta understand it in depth and figure out What is that solution service that it needed or wanted there in define it
11:34 so needs and armored truck a person needs is once a sort of my language
11:40 and Jason last week and asked me to put together a list of books and actually put that on the community this week and John Thank you for your additions to it there's a book called grassroots tragic they had on there which is fairly new it came out maybe a year ago not even Some kids also did some work with a mentor of mine my business school professor at honeywell they built a strategic marketing program and in the book he said I need is a what with a willingness to purchase or will it be a ability really wanted to one the pay right we used to do the pervasive urge a pervasive willing to pay and they said a need as I want with a willingness to pay those interesting way to look at that I recommend the book you haven't read it yet it's really good with that let's go to the pool because we wanted to get sort of A I I take on where people go when I help people with theirs whether it's helping with pragmatic marketing or was doing and I we often say I look at market problems needs and wants jobs to be done as interchangeable parts but I wanted to put it out to the question to put it out here and obviously market problems came in number one I have to think that there's a strong Like Matic marketing school of Steve Ah flavor there are under an unmet needs and wants and I will say Rob I was probably leaning towards market problems until I read your
13:07 That's actually why I added wants to the
13:11 to the to the question then we are jobs to be done I I I'd like to know rob where did you go on this one I will jobs to be done okay I thought you might I know you're very strong jobs we done person but The needs and wants I wonder they wanted to see where you would go with that
13:28 the ice I Gonna start everything in a J P DVD
13:34 mindset
13:37 again my company that I sold it was eighty five ninety percent of what we did was workflow research so ice I kind of focus the focus everything there I think if you start there especially in the BB world If you start their unique it really never go wrong so I did not have enough potential an interesting all allow you to get four plus other Ah I wanted to have a thought of breaking up jobs to be done to be Jobs we got activity versus jobs to be done near the strategy way versus jobs to be done
14:13 outcomes do you have to read that that's what you have to read your i See you put my favorite new book Audio and cocking can compete Yeah why after we were coffee can be because it's an outcomes thing because it's the edits M N J DVD is so different i'm I'm one of the case studies in strategy What's the work that I was doing at husband and I delight at the pipes and so is it the strategy and approach is a lot different than the way we do DVD about the rest of the world
14:47 not that it's bad it gets do it gets do a dance or bullets but there are differences so if you go back to drucker innovation and entrepreneurship he actually the first time if I go back time was the first time I think anybody used the term jobs to be done he's talking about the different places you can look for innovation one of them was in the process right in what he says is you need to understand the job to be done within that process
15:12 to find the innovation opportunity to me it seems like strategy may be a lot more lined up with that he wasn't really talking outcomes at the time jason if you're willing to share how did you vote and I'm talking about this poll
15:24 market problems A were trying to get Yeah I mean they're all very good but the universe kind of how i've been looking at the things is looking at murder problems for trying to get conifer invasive approach to Solar products actually um so looking at a hike in who has the most problems in in in in spite of kind unmet needs in a the The A I've been working on pretty much to monetize so a lot of these have been met so then it's about innovation of doing things just better faster quicker and easier in those kind of thing so those are sticky to clean those is unmet Home I look at specific problems and try to go through that Matrix US market segmentation of the market and try to get as many areas as possible to to prioritize what we're trying to do with limited resources you know
16:24 We've been approaching it Yeah john
16:28 did you follow it I did I was with you on under unmet needs and wants
16:33 ham but I have at some of the things you Guys your time on a minute ago maybe spin off in a bunch of different interactions around what a product is and whether you're willing to pay for it and then this is which part of the Google search is the product is it the ADS cause people are Gonna pay for that or is it the Need I have a funny or want I have of finding information Harass the whole thing I'd say yes they both are there different you know I'm giving you my take on that would be as the persona user using the search I'm
17:05 I'm not i'm paying with my data right Yeah you are the product in my in my eyes to get to solve my problem and you'd find something and then Google monetize is that by then giving people access to me based on my data profile and in the words I'm searching for they sell that so to me it's actually both sides right
17:28 it's interesting because i remember sitting at a comfy industry cut content industry and every industry summit by say I way back in like two thousand for something like that in that executives from one of the cable companies he basically said you know you need to Be able to make money two ways or if you can find two different streams of revenue and so as the cable companies like we charge people for access and then we charge advertisers for access and so to me the google model is not that much different they're just not putting a price on The surge access
18:06 so with might my two cents there tom did you vote in if you did what did you vote for or if he didn't which would you
18:15 voted for market problems
18:17 is that did you take pragmatic marketing Yeah Pfizer Yeah so Yeah I'd say that the main reason I went away from market problems because there were times when I was coaching people are are helping people with it and the like but that's not a problem it's more of a need and there was the semantic of the word problem with the negative and ill an implication of problem and I think to me that's one of the main reasons I've gone away from it but with that said and I I put this question we've been talking about a little I want to get you know are they interchangeable concepts these words or are they actually different aspects that you could bring together ah you know have multiple that work together
19:09 I
19:12 I think that needs and wants definitely fits with that
19:17 A jobs to be done as a place that it really to me I'm trying to get my head around I can say market problems and needs are interchangeable jobs to be done to me as I almost have different lengths
19:33 Maybe something that's not it's what what's porter's five forces as there's a threat of competitive threat of replacement
19:40 or alternate solution to this to me job done as an alternate solution is almost a different construct Steve I'd love to get your take on this
19:51 well you know I've been saying market problems for twenty five years but I've I'm skewing as well two jobs to be done
19:59 back to get out the example we gave up just moment ago at nobody wants a quarter inch hole either you know what they wanna do is hang a painting
20:10 and I'm reminded of honor of your member reengineering that was a big thing back in the day An Ah I Ah
20:19 I was reading an article about a reengineering project where the insurance company was talking about the customer need and somebody finally said In a what exactly is the customer need and the whoever was speaking said well the customer needs to have their invoices paid you know they want their claim saddled and there's this I'm nodding of everybody around the room about that reality and somebody else said no they want their car fixed they don't care about your Freakin paperwork they don't care about how long it sits in somebody's hand basket or what the mechanics are inside your building with A is I've got to drive a car either a rental or my own I want a car fixed and I I think ever since that you know whenever I think mark Ireland's in My Head I'm I'm really substituting it for jobs to be done in a what are they really trying to accomplish and I I frankly I lose sight of that my own self in my own life I'm like well you know let me but an I pod on the wall or an IPad on the though whatever and I'm like wait what AM I actually trying to accomplish here you know what what job Am I trying to get done let me go ahead and purchase the appropriate thing not cobble together something that may work so rob I want to ask a question is there a market problem for the milkshake
21:47 of like I get energized I thought I'd vote I vote with clay Christensen said with the resource they did was was Pretty I was pretty good in a milkshake was a way to actually pass the five as I'm driving to work at him cause me to get crumbs on my or anything else and mimic a massa I believe in that I live in I've I've I've unfortunately my diet can can get past the fact that I've lived that life
22:18 but I would argue that I could just as easily be a market problem is a job Does I mean there isn't enough that the market right I'm I'm a commuter I wanted to have breakfast and I I don't want my coffee to get cold and I don't wanna get crumbs all over my Stuff and I don't want banana juice or whatever on my finger and I would but I would I would say though it's an outcome the alcohol I was looking for I'm looking for as a consumer I solved it this is one way of solving a fused with milkshake but the outcome of imo he was a consumer is I need I need something to fill the time to satisfy my Hunger it wasn't just I'm Hungry and I had alternatives it was also if you remember the the whole straw the weather that the other the avatar the straw was all about filling the time and allowing me to stay take this this thick milkshake as I'm coming from point a to point B and so it almost was a combination of market problems because it was both the I wanted to be filled filling right i need something felling I need something to eat and I'm driving it's it's sort of too there's a job to be done actually allow you to combine multiple needs your problems
23:26 isn't out yet the same thing combining multiple names right you need transportation from a to b that is reliable and then you but you have a need to feel a certain sense of self worth based on a vehicle you drive or whatever plus the product experience around the service centers everything theoretically being young higher touch then the Volkswagen Britain I didn't solving Three different mark problems needs jobs whatever Yeah
23:53 so it it's it's as you bring them together I bought molester who is one of clay's place Researchers and who worked with him on that milkshake what had wrote a book about college and so everybody talks about college and how you know with moocs and stuff you don't need the learning one of the needs or problems right but there's something about the community Aspect of it right there in the experience you know I I don't know if I could use needs or market problems as well to describe the whole collective of it I I know we used to talk about the single overarching
24:29 Problem right or single overarching need I guess that would be the you know the best the closest way to it but you know
24:38 I think the outcome you know our outcomes it too I look at jobs we I think I'm going back to what I started this sub one on his eye I could see mark probably needs Morse as synonyms were job be done as I get there on alternate view of weight of the way to look at the world John your take you if chimed in a little on fill the jobs be done in what your thoughts are they the same are they different
25:07 at maybe it's like different angles of the same thing to look at it from the top as opposed to looking at it from the side Conceptually like a very abstractly conceptually
25:18 because I think you get for any of these given products that we are defining you can describe them in terms of market problems they solve our needs they solve or jobs to be done right you could theoretically use but and it ends up being slightly different the way you frame it based on that but I think they are all ah interesting useful ways to define the thing you need to do In a market so part of it may be just the consistency of how you do it that you just don't in front for one requirement use a job to be done approach the next use a market problems next a neat because all the sudden You're not consistency in how you're describing things and you come with different lenses sort of My My I get that I I like that Jason What's your take
26:08 Oh Yeah I think I agree that those are of the market problems in the the needs some are very similar as well and it does you don't agree with the real same course of events cutting the dead a week for jason is dead all week it all it ended no honor in that regards I really thought our products in it's such a conceptual way the cool but um you know I do think you know you have me thinking more about the milkshake peace and think This has also do with the car analogy where you're looking at endorphins UMM Anas wasn't the psychological aspect of it and I think that can be missed by connecting me with a persona es and so on
26:53 Defeatism is an aspect of anyone else with the pricing which could like is there could be a whole nother it could be a whole nother conversation about erasing a niece of reception perception of higher quality
27:07 It is ordinary but so Yeah so sorry nothing more tangible than other than what you already put together at it you just something you said popped in my head with jobs within your almost weaving in some persona or segmentation
27:22 Because the job ADs to experience and stuff like that I don't know that's something I may have to to ruminate on it doesn't grate doesn't doesn't know the strategy of just trying to look up the port of fairies in presentation without the abbey am a socialist A psychosocial on the compounding to their methodology I sort of remember me out get through it I'll be writing outcome statements I sort of remember some type of psychosocial he said actually ties together similar thing the Guy was talking about it and I will say then strategize your definition of a persona is pains gains and jobs to be done strategy and are strategizing
28:06 Strategizing Alex to other right Okay
28:13 I get I hadn't thought about what his take on jobs I know is adjusted jumpers I've I don't know what his take is on that I Think Rob I Can't Answer Question wisely because my take on it was written with a block from Alan comment so it's Gonna be coming at it from a biased
28:31 his view was outcomes are better than activities and he he bases and strategy was our activities where he was outcomes tom we're going to give you an edge any any opinion on this or you write a pass the next question
28:47 I'll just go kiddo and pass to the next question right so Steve you were getting here at the beginning
28:56 when or serve when our services products or more so how do you product ties services and all all start off here you know to me if we're talking about that base definition right it's a solution to a problem it shouldn't matter if it Is
29:19 A hard good or a software or services or experience right it should be whatever it is it's a service is our products but then this second part of the question comes run how do you sell it If it's not consistent right if services are different Jason you Guys have professional services as part of Europe if somebody buys your stuff their services to implement right Yeah so it is interesting because I favorite mutability is an interesting piece to the product component because a I recently mistake from a code perspective if I do something very specific spot for a customer were just a you know code shop at the end of the day is that is that solution a product
30:01 you don't so it I got my work and by definition but is it something less product ties the end is a subject RP RI is so repeatedly and I think the same thing is with services and so we look at services we do have a custom component those are the things that are prioritizing I think from a high level you putting together in this is similar to what you even go to training in it instead what you do than ten you know you're looking at this is my structure of my services my approach is with the outcome is Gonna be this with leave behind What the desire is from the customer but you're you may change a bit of those arrests unless the privatized component and then the unratified component is maybe what is the end result ass a little bit of tweaking inner customization to meet the needs Mulder specific entity can you even privatized that you do that though is there back the fact that you're willing to customize for their needs could you sell a good product that has a value prop that solves a problem for them I think UK Tom I mean
31:04 I'm thinking back to your visor of days but you know where you are now is present you guys have big solutions for big banks and stuff right
31:12 Yeah Yeah did you Guys Products services
31:18 Adviser who did their services around those applications to aid and assist people in there there were definitely services that were privatized at Z M less so it's more about the product
31:33 so we don't get into it as much right now definitely try serve their of tab
31:41 John
31:45 I mean if
31:47 if we go back to your definition of a product
31:52 than I can't see how we would Remove services from AH from that definition right it it it's the manner in which you're selling their product and maybe it's not as scalable as a product eyes version to use the way I think Jason was talking about it
32:08 distilled products like If I make one off furniture for somebody is custom every single time it's not very scalable but I'm still making a product I'm selling I'm still meeting people's needs and all that right
32:20 so this is where Steve I was leading to
32:24 you know where I'm going right I never know where you're going
32:29 you say this all the time you sent me these soft softballs and I'm like I have no idea your yourself on his hits you right in the head I spent three hours trying to come up with an unlicensed are going to lead to a softball steve and you see he was a distance runner not a base runner Yeah I'm in it for the long haul
32:49 well no I Wanna go back to tube Applaud Jason's comment my my Big thing on product is repeatable so AH I worked for the company up in Canada Day they were trying to product dies they're offering and I said well what is your offering and they said man hours you know we've got five people with this expertise and they'll do anything you know it You name it they'll do it and I'm like that's just consulting that's not a stand best that's not a product is not standard so for me repeatable and standardized is an element of The difference between a product and one off consulting so so to use John's making furniture concept if you had a design a kit or whatever and you made them custom but you use the same design and components each time you may them custom is that a product
33:53 I think if it is done in east if it is a standard
33:58 delivery system then it wants to be to me wants to be a product is is is that the standards repeatable so for suppressants next day blinds you know that's where none of this comes from yeah they do a lot of what I perceive to be custom work but what they really have is a big warehouse of parts that they can assemble quickly and apparently one day
34:26 to confirm to to meet my right arm it's it's not like there aren't there back in the back room sewing together a blind it's like well we need the red legos and we need the yellow legos and we need a back playing lego were Gonna put him all and steve's Gonna think it's custom
34:45 now it's it's there are only so many window sizes to play with few see I'm no I I agree with that I I'm of the mind that you can still product ties customs are consulting in that type of stuff if you have a standard process for delivery and it's a standard by value proposition your song against you can't delegate we hang honey about something I think what I had by Innovation company even though we did in house only pieces of it so we did the front end week we wrote requirements and we weaken the back and launch we didn't we aren't engineers we we weren't allowed to own screwdrivers regulator that so we talked about the diet change We sold the value chain because customers residents and when our clients had a lot of it was custom work but when our clients had a question about launching a new product anywhere any type of new product that was the B to be world they knew to call us because we we saw the value chain it was a highly customized service Willis is a very common we had a very common processes but we sold the service we had rates we had specific features that we did We we provided again I go back outcomes we provided how communist is long as I could provide an outcome to help somebody or help them achieve an outcome that they want launching a new product in figuring out designing new product coming up on a prototype I gave us the ability to sell us of a highly in our consultative the service tia is as a product and I will say this I successfully sold our company and twenty fourteen Gave me something to sell because when I sold it they thought they were buying a product
36:30 I think amy to me rob that's exactly where I want my head was runup service privatization of services part of the product situation is making it easier to sell a coup in communicate the value proposition even right and you know a friend of mine bought a consulting company on the belief they had all sorts of standardized packages you know what we can do installs we can do implementations we can do training we can do the other thing and then they got into it and found out that everybody was doing their own thing In fact they had no IP they just had you know a number of smart people who could do smart things and and so for me that is not a product smart people doing smart things is brilliant i Don't I you scale That I don't know how you repeat it I don't know how you pay for it and I know that ino in that case they were you Jews generally just saying well you know wilson smart people to you for four hundred dollars an hour and then they get in Big arguments about whether it should be four hundred or two fifty or one twenty five because it wasn't in my view because it wasn't standardized it wasn't repeatable so let me let me let me put a question to you steve
37:50 consultant hey be two hundred thousand dollars and in my people will build it for you contracting agency
38:00 Say I will write you people at hundred fifty dollars an hour to build a product yourself
38:08 are both of them I mean
38:13 well I guess either one is a product because boat I at least in the second example even though you're selling people by the hour
38:24 You've got the people you've got the parts rhino and you've package dot package them in such a way that you can
38:34 that you have you know why to me actually fun I find myself going back in my head to my my metaphor called aspire and that is you know what are your corporate capabilities and DNA as long as you have the systems A throw ten people at a hundred twenty five dollars an hour at this problem then if it's then it becomes repeatable you know we know how to take their money we now have to pay the consultants we know how this Leverages our expertise and our authority
39:08 so the second one I I I I definitely feel it was a product the first one was AH come in and do this for you for two hundred thousand well it was built at royal good for you
39:17 that I that may be a project rather than a product unless we have a good idea body system for how do we deliver on that right indeed and and steve asked the keyword for me is repeatable and this is this is to me the deck story Wow is that the softball see you remember stories that I forgot that are my stories but Yeah I used to tell a story about when my wife and I replaced the deck on the back of our house and they showed up and they built a deck and We went out on the porch and we had drinks and watch the sun go down and I bought a deck that was my job to be done is I want to be drinking outside on the deck
39:57 and yet a lot of services companies Drop ship a lot lotta work on my house and say in I punish put it together yourself or they sell me ten man hours of people and they come to my house my bag and my house for ten hours and then say okay the ten hours is up Don't walk near the edges cause we didn't do any the guard rails you know I'd the the do it yourself and the wheat me that the man hours that didn't complete the job did not satisfy my issue that was Java needed done it without the market problem is solved so in the end it goes back to the Pizza the Pizza analogy go in the same place for different persona four different segments the product is different right for your persona for your segment you wanted it completed deck you you did my brother law he's an engineer he built a hundred foot staircase a staircase down a hundred foot hill so he could put a dock in the lake right in he didn't hire somebody he went in bought the word and actually bought a trailer to carry the word in in Bilton system to have to take the wood down the the hell for him right but that's a project not a product but Po box arts you about word he bought bolts he bought other thing it's but he's not ever Gonna build another deck like
41:23 what about lips Yeah so it was just this got me thinking about that story Gotcha Ah tom
41:34 has this not been any enlightenment Yeah You're in any big position on on product innovation and services
41:43 not only that that the conversation overalls interesting in I have to keep myself from wanting to go down rabbit holes or get into specifics on certain things that really don't they're not relevant to the conversation at this point we wait Steve I out a rat holes not relevant to the conversation all the time on out now now I can't remember what it was there was something you said the beginning of this conversation about I'll dive into that market now that's not really the point of this conversation so he'd stay away from that the conversation all you keeping higher level in in What are the theory is more appropriate and that's what I'm listening to and getting out of it I so any last thoughts on services and privatisation before we go to our ah rapid fire final question
42:32 I think given the conversation we either need to redefine what a product is because as I've mentioned multiple times scalable is important
42:42 because if it's a solution for percent his problem including all the components necessary to fully solve that problem and the experience then
42:51 the services are can easily solve that problem like the two hundred thousand dollar project or him out solves that company's problem fully
43:01 where the positive experience even if it's not necessarily scalable and repeatable her does a methodology make it a product do you use as a consulting company is essential whoever else has a standard methodology this is how we do a consulting project We do this than we do this than we do this than we do this than we do this that framework that proven process I think that makes any more successful product makes it more profitable and easier to run easier to do easier to sell actually sounds any scale that easier to scale but even if it's not scalable
43:36 unless we change the definition of product in the beginning which maybe just be arguing semantics but then it's not That's what this call is about John it's all awful and let's keep arguing semantics we need to change the definition or accept the fact that all that accenture is doing is making their product better by putting a framework around Steve what's this slide you have a new new one talking about a system and if it's not repeatable it's
43:59 ah yeah in fact I was using it to cheat this conversation I made three points in a in a presentation I do on on the foundations or fundamentals of of of product if it's delivered only once it's consulting if it doesn't deliver benefits then it's a part or a component and if the customer isn't I then it's an experiment
44:27 so
44:29 that was that was a sign that actually got me into this whole
44:33 topic for this week so I'm glad you pulled it out
44:38 all right we're gonna go to are
44:41 Final question of the week and now we've had a whole bunch of takes on product right we been talking all around it and we're going to start
44:53 to my left ever as I'm looking at the The screens are Jason is Gonna be first up in so he can't say ditto
45:03 Jason what is your best take on the definition of product what what do you mean
45:11 Quickie is what's your biggest here's my thought on what is a product
45:18 it's the outcome it's the value Is
45:23 are you won't take some time to think about this you're not ready to make your order we can all order and york look at the menu
45:30 yet circle are on somebody elses let me do my best take I'll start with it and then we'll go to my left
45:38 my mistake is
45:41 the whole company is the product every experience somebody has from the first call they get every interaction they get with email on the phone on the web every single part of the customary user experience through the whole Buyer's journey through the buying process in post right everybody who enters it touches is part of the product if you go to A Four seasons or Ritz Carlton hotel what are the what are the people that I don't Wanna call the maids that housekeeping staff what they do when you walk by
46:18 and say Hello they blend into the wall
46:24 right clearly some of US are not staying at the nicer hotels in snoring those come out of it polite but there are whole thing is about staying out of your way right you may experience you get at a Ritz carlton from the person taking you from the desk and walk into your room and showing you the room and everything you get it's the whole experience the products not just that really nice bed it's every in every experience you get with that there was research on this is I i've tried to find it for so long I remember reading it when I was in business school you know nineteen ninety five and it found that people who went to a five star hotel were more likely to rank it five stars If at a problem that was solved over the top
47:13 then if they had no problems whatsoever
47:17 so part of the product is the fact that when something goes wrong they overhear right and so sizzler attic ethnically the systematic for a cop it is it is as part of their price for so for a product to me is ever if they're not judging you Product on just the experience when you're using it they're judging it on how obnoxious you're email list is and how often you touch them and what experience I get when they're interacting with support or with a sales person rescheduling something it's everything it then takes the whole product concept to a bigger level that's my take
47:58 sawyer does taken under financial problem is the overall experience with the organization it's the whole product is everything every touch with every experience that customer has everything it as part of it is part is the product
48:13 agree with the
48:16 are you doing me a new algorithm Does it it Ross for video you I Can't be a fall for doing rob
48:29 I Jason's Gonna pass data you don't have to take
48:35 Maybe I
48:37 just Jason Obey the outgoing Jason has gone my lap but you don't get on my lap dancer
48:43 holidays and me I I I don't disagree in a minute Your Best League and you have your opinions not kidding ah yeah die
48:54 there's one aspect of art is arma to talk about but I as you are talking about it overall experience I mean that's how he as I run my organisation you everything from the first interaction to the ongoing unless directed to the point where like saying Goodbye to a customer for whatever various reasons be considered as a product to leave annually in in life every single one of those situations and every one of the every person who works in our organization is part of then we look at everybody is as being part of that product and so it is it is very interesting concept to to kind of come back to on most was product management issues with your product I'm kind of it's more tactical level product management were in sleep thinking about the deliverables in a limo not thinking about that will roll experience from every single aspect of the from the better customer has but it's a it's a great thing we should promote throughout the organization you actually said so much better than i Jason listen if there was a smartest did however occur I agree I top your next yea
49:58 well they gave you the ditto all DNS one this this one a the way you worded it hit it on the head it is the entire process it's everything that's involved in that
50:10 Yeah Advisor served the I out there that typical thought that that national heads will you got the product he gave it to the client dump it more Gonna not worry about it but that ongoing relationship is part of that product you need to keep that client need to keep me happy and I say success and variance is customer success a natural extension of the product then
50:35 it should be
50:37 it should be and not everybody think but that way they just wanted move on from there yeah so it yeah it Yeah I agree with you that entire process everything and bob and that is the product
50:52 awesome steve
50:56 well you know I'm inclined to say Ditto ditto Ditto Ditto ditto and so I'm Gonna and I'll do one one other I bought a lot of stuff from Amazon over the last two weeks and
51:08 that certainly part of the experience but I was sitting out front and the Amazon truck pulls up and the driver got my package and literally ran up to me and I'm like hey you don't need to run it's a wire you know it's not like I'm sitting I the street waiting for you to bring a new computer is just you know out of it and she's like they like us to run
51:35 and I went there
51:39 it just really Bothered me that she did not think of herself as part of Amazon Yay Amazon is asking me not amazon to do this basis so part of it is a make sure everybody realizes they're part of the product I love let's see if she was part of the experience but she didn't consider herself part of the product i guess awesome rob which oh by the way I want I say Amp was a failure of leadership not a failure of the drive I agree outside I get up that story I really just get up everything because I have nothing of value to add the elders I I have a hard time believing that but I'll take over our honeymoon miller corvette of a moment of silence here joy okay are John I it is hard to follow that but the one I commend the one thing I can think of you can add to that is the if you think like the uber versus lift Story it's not just my experience with Uber that affects whether or not I take over it's over expert it interactions with the rest of the world the fact that they had this sort of potentially negative culture and all those things impacted my experience with the product even though didn't actually impact me if that makes sense so I think that's the whole experience thing is Brian mean it's not it's not just the whole journey through it's actually the relationship to that person from everything else they do even if I'm not included in it That's because I I actually switched to live from uber because of that because of that same year so if wow now I feel like we just Gotta hope a communication exercise because a member like in to the communication or size where I would say something In will have to listen to it repeat what I said and then add to it and then tom would have to repeat what he is we just did that I think Improv class yes and yes it was it was the Improv yes answer I'm Gonna start figuring out how I can make questions that are always going to be additive so we start with a base and then everybody can add onto it just like the Friday question but with that said it is it is that we're at the end of the conversation Thank you Jason Todd Steve Raabe John every week it's these are some of the best times I love the conversation everybody makes me think I changed my view through the call In you know it's it's a it's a respect because they're such great people on the call and thank you to each and every one of you for your participation but for making me think and pushing me to a new level so I appreciate that we're in the community
54:18 actually goes up on Monday poll on Wednesday and these wonderful cars on Friday so with that said guys thank you Guys for a great call this weekend we'll see you next week take

Check out the playlist for this conversation on YouTube at https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEqPDEOgl0rqTiWY-dW2vh43fbB0Vbz0y.